Ravi Zacharias is a graduate of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and has been a visiting scholar at Cambridge University. He is the author of A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism, and is the founder and president of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. Ravi lectures at universities worldwide, primarily focusing on defending the Christian faith through apologetics. He recently received widespread acclaim for his series of lectures presented to the Veritas Forum at Harvard University.
MR: Dr. Zacharias, we've appreciated your ministry. You are doing some terrific work and we are hearing from all kinds of quarters the inroads you are making at institutions where one wouldn't necessarily expect that kind of impact.
Zacharias: Thank you. I'm also encouraged by what you guys are doing, especially all the books you are turning out at such a furious pace. We are grateful to the Lord for what is happening. The turning point I would say came after the Harvard University forums. We were just inundated with university invitations from all over the world, really. It's difficult work and I'm sure you are well aware of how intimidating settings like that can be. You are in front of an audience where there are experts in a variety of fields and you have to measure up at their level. But I always claim the promise from Deuteronomy not to be afraid, but to take courage for "I will be with you and not forsake you."
MR: What do you think was so effective about the Harvard forum?
Zacharias: The effectiveness of the Harvard forum, I think, was the fact that I started on a note of common ground so that they would not feel that I was coming there to tear down any strongholds. I just began by saying let's agree on the fact that we have to deal with this intelligently and not in any form of antagonism, otherwise there will be more heat than light. And also, I really believe, as tense as those settings are, ultimately there is no answer out there. Secularism is bankrupt. There is no meeting of the deepest hunger. So my attempt was to start with the mind and make a way to the heart. With all the work that went into the forum though, I guess I would ultimately have to attribute the effectiveness to the sovereignty of God.
MR: In your book, A Shattered Visage, you go into greater depth with this subject of the bankruptcy of secularism. Do you think that this presents an opportunity for Christians in everyday walks of life to interact with their friends, family members and neighbors, perhaps at a deeper, more sophisticated level than they have in recent decades?
Zacharias: Yes. In fact, all one needs to do is look at the newspaper everyday and somebody wants to talk about something that is ultimately going to lead to the question of who we are and why we are here? A week doesn't go by when there is not that type of opportunity. I am absolutely convinced that if we wait for the successful "happy Pagan"–the type of person who likes to think things through–if we wait for them to come into our churches, then we are simply not going to make it. We've got to be on their territory and be willing to be vulnerable and open to dialogue with them. And also I believe that if we start equipping our young people with this kind of mentality, then we will really be preparing for the future.
MR: What do you think about the response many Christians have had toward the collapse of meaning and value that we see so evident in the clash between Christianity and culture these days? Do you think that sometimes we as Christians view things too politically, focusing on getting back our piece of the pie, or gaining power over the institutions, etc., instead of having better ideas than the opposing forces? Do we Evangelicals believe more in the power of people than the power of ideas?
Zacharias: Yes. You know, if we'd only understand history we would realize that wherever the message has become politicized, it has never worked. Politics by nature is a power game, it is a self-propagated domination game. But Jesus tried to change societies from the inside out. I think we have lived in such an insulated setting in the United States for so long with things generally going our way, and now that the battle lines are being re-drawn they think this is a tremendous defeat. But we must stop whining about it and simply realize that most countries have had to deal with this type of environment for so long. Another point that is important to make here is a distinction made by Peter Kreeft. He said that in the Christian scheme of things there is an egalitarianism among the people, but an elitism of ideas, whereas in secularism what has happened is that they have made ideas egalitarian and the people elitist. We must simply point out that the ideas must come into the forefront of today's battles.
MR: Don't we see that in Paul on Mars Hill as he quotes Aratus, Cleanthes, and even "A Hymn To Zeus"? Here's a man who wasn't afraid to read secular literature and to understand the mind of his hearers and to try to build bridges to them.
Zacharias: Again and again it is noted for us. Moses tried to do it the wrong way and God put him aside for forty years. He says, Moses if you are going to try to do this with your fist it's not going to work. And in the New Testament, of course, Paul is the classic example, as you mentioned, but there is also Apollos, and Stephen. But I'll tell you what I think our problem today is. It is a failure to recognize that God is still in control. We somehow think he needs a helping hand, and if we can just battle it out our way it will work out. So I believe you are right, but it is a hard lesson to learn. One of the reasons may be because it takes hard work to understand the idea-makers out there as Paul did, and Moses too was learned in all of the wisdom of the Egyptians. We have to go the long way around and find the bridges, and that is hard work.
MR: Is it because ultimately it is the ideas that are going to run the show?
Zacharias: Ultimately it is going to be the triumph of truth, and truth as a long reach. You can avoid it, you can evade it, you can run all your life from it, but sooner or later the truth is going to catch up with you.
MR: Is there a danger in all of this, too, that truth gets lost in the search for pragmatism? For example, is it really "evangelism" to tell the world to try Christianity because it will personally enrich a person's life, or because it will help society run smoother?
Zacharias: Yes, sheer pragmatism is probably the predominant North American philosophy: do whatever works. But what we find out in the long run is that sometimes what works isn't necessarily good or true. And we have to think these things through in order to determine the pitfalls of evangelism. Jesus Christ is not only an answer to people's needs, but also must be seen to be true. That step is missing in evangelism. If you come to Christ through sheer pragmatism, there will always be somebody around the corner who can pragmatically give you something better. Jesus is the answer because he is the truth, and this is a very difficult concept for Americans to grasp.
