Should We Oppose Same-Sex Marriage?
I appreciate the responses to my previous posts on this issue and, after reading some of the questions, thought somewhat pressed to write this last one. OK, so we know what Christian marriage is. We preach that, teach it, and expect believers to embrace Scripture’s instructions regarding sexual conduct, although we are still sinners who must continually repent, trust in Christ, and receive his pardon. Got it. But what about the public argument?
As I said in the last one, we aren’t authorized to speak in God’s name where he hasn’t spoken, but we are commanded to do so wherever he has. This is where it gets dicier, though. I’d like to frame my response, first off, in terms of two extremes that we have to avoid:
1. Treating references to homosexuality in the Old Testament as either irrelevant or directly applicable to the current question.
You see this in public debates of the issue, where extremists on both sides talk over (and past) each other. One thing they often share in common is interest in quoting passages from the Old Testament on the question. Then the person on the left reminds us that the sanction mentioned is stoning. “Do you want to stone gays?”, one shouts. “No, but I believe what the Bible says about homosexuality.” “Well, right next to that verse it says that you should stone disobedient children—Oh, and not eat pork, and not touch a woman who is having her period.” Bottom line: the skills of biblical interpretation are about equally as bad on both sides of the table.
The statements in Leviticus are part of the Mosaic covenant. They pertain uniquely to the covenant that God made with Israel as a nation. The laws that governed every aspect of private and public life, cult and culture, were a unique episode in redemptive history. Their divine purpose cannot be rationalized in terms of sanitation, public health, or personal well-being. The whole focus was on God and his desire to separate Israel from the nations, preparing the way for the Messiah to come from her womb. Therefore, there is no more biblical warrant for stoning homosexuals today than there is for avoiding Scottish cuisine.
If there’s every reason to distinguish these two covenants, we have to be very careful nonetheless that we don’t make the opposite interpretive blunder of contrasting the Old and New Testaments on the question of homosexual practice itself. I’ve heard of late several times committed Christians acknowledging that the Old Testament forbids it, but the New Testament is silent. It’s “mean Moses” versus “nice Jesus”: a familiar but completely baseless contrast. Affirming that the the civil laws are now obsolete doesn’t mean that the rationale explicitly given for some of these laws should be disregarded, especially when God singles some acts out not simply as dependent on God’s will for that time and place, but as “abominations.” Homosexuality is included in that list, as it is also in the New Testament (1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim 1:10—right up there with “murders, enslavers, liars, and perjurers”). The church does not have the power of the sword in the new covenant. Nevertheless, God’s statement on the matter is pretty clear: he hates homosexuality. It violates the natural order—reflecting the extent to which fallen humanity will go to suppress the truth—even that which can be known by reason—in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18-32).
Jesus brings forgiveness of sins, not a new—supposedly easer, happier, more fulfilling law. In fact, he upbraids the lax view of divorce tolerated in his day. Jesus does not ground marriage between a man and a woman in the Mosaic covenant—or in the new covenant, but returns to the order of created nature: “He answered, ‘Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh”? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate’” (Mat 19:4-6).
It should be added that Paul’s point in Romans 1-3 is to sweep the whole world—Jew and Gentile—into a heap, condemned under the law, in order to announce that Christ is the Savior of all, Jew and Gentile, and justifies the ungodly who trust in him. We are all called to repent—lifelong repentance, in fact. In this, as in everything, we fall short; our imperfect repentance would be enough to condemn us if we weren’t clothed in Christ’s righteousness. However, to repent is to acknowledge that God is right and we are wrong—on the specifics of precisely where we want to assert our sovereignty.
2. Allowing same-sex marriage because since this isn’t a Christian nation, we should not seek to make the traditional Christian view public law.
Yes and no. The argument sounds like a “two-kingdoms” approach, but I think it’s actually more on the historic Anabaptist side.
First, it is certainly true that America is not a Christian nation and in any case Christians should not seek to promote distinctively Christian doctrines and practices through the properly coercive power of the state.
Second, however, I believe that we have to carefully distinguish general and special revelation, common and saving grace, the kingdoms of this age and the kingdom of God. Traditional Roman Catholics and Protestants are the vanguard of the pro-life movement, but in addition to witnessing to the depth of Christian conviction on the subject they also make arguments that can appeal to the conscience of non-Christians. The goal is certainly to legislate morality (just as the pro-abortion lobby attempts). However, it is the attempt to include the unborn in the category of those to whom the most basic right to life applies (namely, human beings). It is not a distinctively Christian view that the unborn are human beings (many pro-abortionists even agree, but rank the mother’s choice and happiness higher). Nor is it a distinctively Christian view that human beings shouldn’t be murdered—regardless of the parents’ economic or psychic well-being.
I think that the same can be said here as well. Marriage is not grounded in the gospel, but in creation. Special revelation corrects our twisted interpretations and gives us a better map, but general revelation gives sufficient evidence at least for minimal arguments from antiquity. Knowledgeable people will disagree about the strength of those arguments, since, for example, Greek elites often had teen-age boys entertain them on the side—with the approval or at least the awareness of their wives. Yes, others reply, but that was part of the downfall of the Greek civilization. In every case, it will be a debatable point—not to say that it isn’t worth arguing, but in the light especially of recent studies, it probably will not change a lot of minds.
Third, in my own wrestling with the political debate, love of neighbor looms large. Some on the right may offer arguments that reflect more the same demand for special rights as those on the left of the issue. The legal aspects of that are beyond my pay-grade—and they are important. Others may treat this issue as irrelevant: “Look, it doesn’t affect me. I just don’t want to live next door to some creepy home like that.” However, in terms of specifically Christian witness, love of neighbor (as God’s image-bearers) should be front-and-center. We have to care about our non-Christian neighbors (gay or straight) because God cares and calls us to contribute to the common good.
The challenge there is that two Christians who hold the same beliefs about marriage as Christians may appeal to neighbor-love to support or to oppose legalization of same-sex marriage.
On one hand, it may be said that if we can no longer say that “Judeo-Christian” ethics are part of our shared worldview as a republic, then the ban seems arbitrary. Why isn’t there a campaign being waged to ban providing legal benefits to unmarried heterosexual couples? Or to make divorce more difficult? It just seems more symbolic than anything else: it looks like our last-gasp effort to enforce our own private morality on the public. On the other hand, we might argue that every civilization at its height, regardless of religion, has not only privileged marriage of one man and one woman but has outlawed alternative arrangements. Same-sex marriage means adoption, which subjects other human beings to a parental relationship that they did not choose for themselves. Are we loving our LGBT neighbors—or their adopted children—or the wider society of neighbors by accommodating a move that will further destroy the fabric of society?
I take the second view, but I recognize the former as wrestling as much as I’m trying to with the neighbor-love question. Legal benefits (“partnerships”) at least allowed a distinction between a contractual relationship and the covenant of marriage. However, the only improvement that “marriage” brings is social approval—treating homosexaul and heterosexual unions as equal. Although a contractual relationship denies God’s will for human dignity, I could affirm domestic partnerships as a way of protecting people’s legal and economic security. However, the “marriage card” is the demand for something that simply cannot consist in a same-sex relationship. Human love is defined not by a feeling, shared history, or animal attraction, but by something objective, something that measures us—namely, God’s moral law. To affirm this while concluding that it’s good for Christians but not for the rest of us seems to me to conclude that this law is not natural and universal, rooted in creation, and/or that we only love our Christian neighbors.
At the end of the day, what tips the scales toward the second view is that I can’t see how neighbor-love can be severed from love of God, which is after all the most basic command of all. Even if they do not acknowledge “nature and nature’s God”—or anything above their own sovereign freedom to choose—reality nevertheless stands unmovable. Like the law of gravity, the law of marriage (of one man and one woman) remains to the end of time—not just for Christians, but for all people everywhere.


May 11th, 2012 at 4:04 pm
Dr. Horton: “Second, however, I believe that we have to carefully distinguish general and special revelation, common and saving grace, the kingdoms of this age and the kingdom of God.”
Dr. Horton, does the following message from Pastor JD Greear to his congregation about their voting behavior fall within the guidelines of the 2K doctrine espoused by you and others at Westminster West?
The Summit Church and the Marriage Amendment
Excerpts: “At the same time, there is a time, when out of love for our neighbor, civic action is appropriate and ought to be commended by the church. The church should have been vocal during the civil rights movement in the 1960’s and women’s suffrage movement of the early 20th century.
I believe this is another one of those times.
Marriage is a wonderfully sacred institution, given by God as a blessing to–and the building block of–all societies. Government did not define or establish marriage; God did. Governments merely recognize that which has been established by the Creator.
Our country’s Declaration of Independence acknowledges that the foundation of human flourishing is God and His designs.
…
So, I encourage you go out and vote in support of this amendment this Tuesday. I want you to do so as an act of service and love for our community.”
May 11th, 2012 at 6:03 pm
I appreciate this analysis of the complicated issues surrounding God’s word, society, morality, and marriage. While I am quick to defend the sanctity and the importance of marriage (for I am a product of faithful parents and am blessed by many married friends and relatives), it also seems that the non-marrieds often get second-rate treatment in the church. As a single man, I’m always hearing about how God created Adam and Eve together and of how life is better lived under this paradigm. I see churches burgeoning with growing biological families, and I see ministry after ministry setup to encourage this. This is understandable. However, it’s hard enough for singles living away from home to find community, and, in my experience, the church does very little to bring those who live under a non-married paradigm into the fold. Is not the church supposed to be a close-knit family based on something greater than shared genetics or names? Since there is no marriage in heaven and no distinction between male or female in Christ, why does the discussion always seem like it is the marrieds versus the non-marrieds (in this case, homosexuals) or in fulfilling stringent gender requirements (not that these aren’t important)? There are a myriad of reasons why people aren’t married, and there are many types of relationships that we can form in life in order to connect with others. As a believer, I would rather be able to make the strongest connections with fellow believers who are intent in making life about the One who loved us and gave Himself for us, so I implore married believers to use lots of neighbor-love to those who haven’t had the opportunity to live life in marriage but who need family. Finally, I recognize the connection between holiness and sexuality, but I also group myself with the homosexuals in this instance in order to defend those who would feel left out–directly or indirectly–by putting such a strong emphasis on a type of relationship that cannot be had by all.
May 11th, 2012 at 6:51 pm
i agree with you, nathan. if marriage is the ultimate goal in life for all humans, then how come gays can never be apart of it?
May 11th, 2012 at 7:37 pm
Yes, in the sense that we must stand up for the law of God. But we must
do it also within His law, which is with love and understanding of our own sinful and fallen nature. This has not been the case politically in recent years in our country, which have been marked by hatred and anger. Scripture does not condemn being homosexual. Scripture only prescribes a definition of marriage…between one man and one woman. I am a heterosexual. Nearly 65 years old and single. If I were to enter a sexual relationship with a woman, it would be the same as a homosexual relationship outside of marriage. Marriage is clearly defined in Scripture.
May 11th, 2012 at 8:00 pm
Put the issue up for a referendum. That’s simple and you don’t have to tell anyone how you voted.
May 11th, 2012 at 8:36 pm
In this post you make the assumption that the Mosaic law does not apply to Christians. I agree with the Westminster standards which teach a threefold division of the law. The passage in question should be considered a part, or at least an explanation or direct application, of the moral law. We need to pay attention when God says something is an “abomination,” because this refers to a statute which is not temporary.
Also, the 2K view as you present it does in fact have much in common with the Anabaptist view, contra the historic Reformed view that both the kingdom of God’s grace and the kingdom of His power are properly subject to His moral law expressed both in general and special revelation.
May 11th, 2012 at 8:45 pm
How about a blog post “Should we oppose adultery?” or “Should we oppose divorce except in the case of adultery?”
Opposing something and asking the state to enforce something are two very different things. You can either decide that the role of civil government is limited to protecting against force and fraud (murder, theft, etc.) or it should enforce all of Biblical law. But there is no rationale for drawing the line in between the two where we pick certain things that God hates and call those private sins and other things God hates and petition the government to ban them.
May 11th, 2012 at 10:49 pm
I think it is time to muster some intellectual courage and admit that the Bible contains many historical, moral, and theological errors. The Bible is not inerrant. Quite the contrary. Take 1 Timothy 2. It says that Eve and not Adam was deceived by the serpent, and that Eve and not Adam sinned. This flatly contradicts Genesis 3, not to mention Romans 5. Archaeology has identified over twenty of the thirty-some cities that were destroyed under Joshua according to the book of Joshua. Of these, only two show destruction in the relevant period; and, according to Judges, one of these, Hazor, wasn’t destroyed under Joshua. The examples can be multiplied indefinitely. It is absurd to take moral advice on sexuality from a book that teaches that rape victims should be forced by law to marry their rapists. What is particularly galling is that most supposedly Christians I meet don’t know the difference between Jeremiah and Ezekiel, but they are willing to use the Bible to preach hate. Stop hating. And stop destroying the church and making fools of yourselves.
May 12th, 2012 at 3:02 am
Dear Leslie Wolf,
Are you saying that the Apostle Paul was wrong? or contradicting himself, since what you described is in fact what the Greek says (not misprinted or mistranslated)? Why would it be wrong to say that the woman was deceived first, or–at the same time–to say that in Adam all have sinned?
Also, why is it more intellectual (take more courage within the will of the mind) to conceed that the Bible is fallible or errant? Why should it take more courage when there is so much support for that standpoint? But to stand firm in the teaching of the Apostle’s and prophets seems to me a greater task of the mind, one that cannot be accomplished on one’s own, or by one’s own strength.
I think we take great comfort in that confession (that the Bible is errant), and through it shrug off so much of the tension that is felt in trying to maintain the perfectness of the Father’s written word; especially as pilgrims in this world that wants nothing to do with our Holy, Just, and Almighty God–even if it denies that very fact.
Who really wants to come out into the light and admit that they hate God? So much easier to deny it and stay in the darkness–unexposed. Who wants to admit that they are hopelessly lost in sin? That would take all the power away from me. Nobody just naturally admits this–apart from regeneration. But all have been lost, all have hated, and nobody has truly sought the Father on their own.
No one wants a Holy God. We all want our own God, and our own righteousness. And consequently, our own facts that support the inner desires and longings of our souls at any given moment. The fight of faith struggles to take hold of the desires of the new man created in Christ Jesus; continuously letting go of the desires of the old sinful man that seeks to supress the truth of God in following that which pleases the first nature — whatever seems more right or more fulfilling.
On destroying the church…can this be done? But there are some things that need to be torn down, namely “strongholds,” or ideas (thoughts) — even emotional ones — that take captive the mind of those in the congregation and deceive them, leading them away from sound doctrine. Am I right that ministers of the gospel, by preaching the gospel, are to expose these false teachings; bringing direction, clarity, and confidence to the flock?
If a person’s perception is true, then their whole outlook and approach to life will be under that influence. But if a person’s thinks that their perception is true, when it really is false, then how greatly they have been deceived! (see Matthew 6:23) So the importance of correct teaching and doctrine is paramount in the church.
Respectfully,
Chris Jager
Tillamook, OR
May 12th, 2012 at 3:18 am
If you claim the bible contains errors then you must believe Jesus was wrong. He believed it. As for so called discrepancies regarding archaeology…. well men have been getting it wrong all the time. Take Nineveh for example, which everyone believed was a myth…. now you can go to the British Museum and see the evidence for yourself. Jesus taught that marriage was for male and female, so should we.
May 12th, 2012 at 3:21 am
One factor almost no Christians realize is that when we vote “against gay marriage” this vote brings with it a law that destroys lives. Gays that are not permitted to marry are at serious disadvantages in our society. I wish Christians would seriously consider these consequences before rushing to a hasty vote.
Examples of consequences in some parts of the USA that ban gay marriage: A gay couple adopts or has a child via surrogate. Only one parent gets legal rights over that child, not both! So only one parent can show up to school to get that child or fill out paperwork. Only one parent can see the child at the hospital in an emergency! What if the child is dying? Doesnt matter – the non-legal parent is banned. Only one parent gets the child if the couple splits up. The non-legal parent is denied ALL visitation and parental rights to their own child. Children’s lives are destroyed over these laws. Banning gay marriage affects children, not just gay parents.
I understand it is a sin. However, is it better to hold non-Christians to our holiness laws, full well knowing lives are being broken over this law, or is it better to allow sinners who have no desire or Holy Spirit to help them love the things of God to make up some of their own laws that dont really hurt others as much as they might help people who are lost already. Remember, once we were also lost sinners. We could have been one of these gay families had our Lord not had mercy on us and saved us. Gays do not understand, nor can they.
May 12th, 2012 at 8:06 am
Herein lies the problem. Everyone has their own view. Isn’t that a problem in itself. What does the bible say? We all know if we are honest. It was not written so we could read it and decide for ourselves what parts fit our personal views and opinions. We cannot and are not allowed to make it fit out own personal morays and ideals. Our decisions to be selfish humans and rationalize His word so it fits our lifestyle is just wrong, but we all do it. The bible is the unerring word of God. Period. Unfortunately all of us are guilty of making God’s word fit our own needs as selfish humans. Thank God for salvation or we would all burn.
May 12th, 2012 at 9:10 am
Leslie Wolf,
You have the majority vote in your stance of declaring the Bible to be errant. However, the first example you give is hugely flawed. 1 Tim 2: 11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
It states that the woman was deceived!
As for the issue in general, to admit that the Bible contains one single mistake is to open the whole of it up to doubt. With the certainty of its inerrancy gone, we have nothing but our thoughts, feelings and inner ‘moral compass’ to guide us as to what is right and what is wrong in what the Bible says. We cannot, as Bible-following Christians, do other than accept the whole of it as inerrant. If it contradicts current scientific or historic opinion, we wait in faith for the evidence to be examined and for scientists and historians to eventually admit their error.
Concerning homosexuality, if the Bible is inerrant then we must accept its uncompromising statement that homosexuals are committing a sin:
Rom 1: 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
May 12th, 2012 at 9:25 am
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your thoughtful engagement of this issue. I don’t think a reasonable person could justly accuse you of having a knee-jerk reaction here.
Still, I’d like to suggest that this IS a two-kingdoms issue. Romans 13 teaches us that the State is a violent institution. Yes, we should obey it and submit to it, but I think we should be much more careful and thoughtful about how we promote its violent use of the sword – especially in a democratic republic where our legislative efforts (when we can create laws by ballot initiative and proposition) could result in murder-by-proxy. Should Christians be willing to use violence by proxy against homosexuals for getting married?
As far as the point about the concept of marriage throughout human history, I grant your point. But it was a theonomic professor of counseling during my time at WSC who pointed out to me in class, that the Bible nowhere vests any ecclesiastical office with the responsibility of performing marriages. Upon further reflection, I realized that the Bible doesn’t vest that responsibility with the State, either. Then, recently, I heard Roman Catholic historian Thomas Woods point out to an evangelical radio host (who was rabidly against gay marriage), that the State has only been involved in marriage for the last few hundred years – since the inception of the nation-State. Prior to that, it would have been unthinkable to Christians that the State should be defining or regulating or performing marriages.
That brings me to your point about Anabaptism. It may be that Anabaptists argued for a complete separation of Church and State. But I wonder if Constantine has not had deleterious effects on Christian exegesis of Romans 13 and other State-related passages in Scripture. Just to point out a parallel with Anabaptism does not justify theocracy (hard or soft). I’m concerned that Tertullian may have been correct – and that when Constantine relaxed the Imperial policy of the persecution of the Christian Church, the Church began to take Romans 13 as a mandate to seek the State’s sword as a tool for the Church’s own ends. So “Anabaptism” is not a conclusive argument against de-politicizing this issue, every bit as much as citing 16th century Reformers’ civil-political views does not justify a Constantinian exegesis.
In any case, thanks for an more even-handed approach than most.
In Christ,
Chris
May 12th, 2012 at 9:29 am
Leopard, you completely misread what I said. I never said that Genesis 3 claims that Eve didn’t sin. I said that both Genesis 3 and Romans 5, and innumerable other passages in the Bible, claim that Adam sinned too. The point is that 1 Timothy 2 says that Adam didn’t sin. That’s one big fat contradiction. This really isn’t that difficult.
May 12th, 2012 at 10:07 am
@ Leslie Wolf, the text that leopard 139 quoted said that “Adam was not the one deceived…” The text does not say Adam did not sin. The rest of the Bible makes that blatantly clear. This passage says that Adam was not the one deceived by the serpent. Eve was. The Genesis account says that Eve ate of the fruit and then gave it to Adam to eat. These two passages are consistent.
I feel that there is a concept here that hasn’t been touched on here. There are two aspects to marriage in this world. There is the spiritual aspect (covenantal) and then there is a legal aspect (government.) Where did this legal aspect come from? The government made it up! The government has got its hand into something that it really doesn’t have authority in. Yes, they may be able to give out marriage license and legal benefits, but what does that do? Just as two individuals may legally divorce, so too, I think, we should let homosexuals get “married.” The key here is that even though those divorcees may be legally divorced, God has not absolved them of their covenant. The same goes for the homosexuals. They may live together and have done a ceremony, but they can never partake in the spiritual benefits of marriage. Isn’t the spiritual dimension really the fullness of marriage? Marriage is a relationship sanctioned, preserved, and loved by God. Homosexuals can never partake in those benefits. So really, what they think they want is simply counterfeit marriage. I say we let them have it. If they want to live together and have joint tax accounts, they can do that. They will answer to God someday for it. It’s our job as Christians to minister to them and love them. Not use the government to force them into conformity with God’s law. Change does not come from the outside in. It comes from the inside out. They are unregenerate, so how can we expect them to live any other way?
May 12th, 2012 at 10:13 am
Chris, the problem is that 1 Timothy 2 flatly denies that Adam sinned. That’s the plain sense of the text, and that’s the reading that’s required to sustain the argument of the passage. It can be proved well beyond a reasonable doubt that the Bible contains inconsistencies and errors of all kinds. Of course, inerrantists refuse to admit that. So they accuse errantists of being prideful, heretical, or unable to read. This is all nonsense, of course. But let’s look at a few passages.
Who destroyed Hazor? That depends on whether you read Joshua 11 or Judges 4-5. When did God first reveal His name YHWH to the Israelites? That depends on whether you read Exodus 6:2-3 or Genesis 15:7 and 28:13. Does the Torah allow Israelites to enslave other Israelites? That depends on whether you read Leviticus 25:45-46 or Exodus 21:7-11. (I think Deuteronomy 15:12-17 is consistent with Leviticus 25.) Who killed Goliath? That depends on whether you read 1 Samuel 17 or 2 Samuel 21. What are the Ten Commandments? That depends on whether you read Exodus 20 or Exodus 34. Is it permissible to use cattle for the Passover offering? That depends on whether you read Exodus 12:3-5 or Deuteronomy 16:2. Should the Passover offering be roasted or boiled? That depends on whether you read Exodus 12:8-9 or Deuteronomy 16:7. Did Manasseh repent? That depends on whether you read 2 Kings 21 or 2 Chronicles 33. Should sukkhot be celebrated for seven or eight days? That depends on whether you read Deuteronomy 16:13-15 or Leviticus 23:35-36,39. Let’s turn to a few historical problems. The Book of Daniel claims that Belshazzar was Nebuchadnezzar’s son, and that he succeeded Nebuchadnezzar as king for a time. This is false. All the historical records – and there are many – prove that Belshazzar was not N’s son, and he never ruled as king. Daniel also maintains that Darius the Mede ruled over Israel for a time. But the Medes never ruled over Israel – the Persians destroyed Media, then Persia conquered Israel, but Media never ruled over Israel. Moreover, there never was a king named Darius the Mede.
Hundreds, if not thousands, more examples like these can be easily produced. I don’t claim that the Bible contains errors because I am prideful or heretical. I claim that the Bible contains errors because I know how to read, and because I am not afraid to use my brain. I love the Bible, and I think that it is full of truth. However, it also contains inconsistencies and errors. Do the inconsistencies and errors undermine the core of orthodox Christianity? Not at all. But it does mean that we need to be very cautious about using the Bible to inflict pain and suffering on other people. And that’s precisely what the church is doing to the LGBTQ community – it’s inflicting terrible pain and suffering on it.
May 12th, 2012 at 10:20 am
Leslie Wolf, Eve was decieved by the serpent and sinned.
When Adam ate it was a direct transgression without deception. 1 Timothy 2 says Adam was not decieved. No mention of him not being a sinner. Pretty simple.
May 12th, 2012 at 10:40 am
[...] here Mike Horton tackles the tricky issue of whether Christians should oppose gay marriage. Marginally, [...]
May 12th, 2012 at 8:39 pm
The 1 Tim text refers to Eve’s ‘deception’ FIRST AND FOREMOST. Then she became a sinner. It does NOT flat out contradict other passages. Paul’s point (it’s called nuance) is that Eve was deceived….and his point is that women are not called to ministry due to our nature.
RE: Civil magistrate’s involvement in marriage: even as a 2K-er I can state that the goverment has a vested interest (as well as society) in regulating (to some degree) marriage and property rights, etc. Heirs have a ‘right’ to their name and parental support and to care and protection. Citizens have freedoms and the right to life, being God’s creation, made in His Image. There is a place for the CM to intervene. Life is more complex and there is nothing in the bible forbidding the state from keeping order.
If we deny that creation itself (in God’s plan) intended male and female to bond as ONE, then we cannot forbid polygamy, polyandry nor polyamory.
I think Professor Horton is absolutely correct in citing natural law. I appreciate most sincerely HIS grappling with this issue.
May 13th, 2012 at 2:45 am
Dear Leslie,
We all have our presuppositions when reading the text. It is these presuppositions that guide our interpretation, and our attempts at understanding it. On one hand I see how you are forming your arguement, but on the other hand I see how both Stanley and Dan form theirs. While one could logically follow — and reasonably at that — Stan and Dan’s interpretation, therein upholding Scripture’s inerrancy, one could also read the text differently and prove that the Scriptures are errant. My question is: why would someone choose to reject a perfectly reasonable explanation that upholds that sacred text’s integrity? I’m not just talking about that passage alone, either.
It seems that once one approaches the Bible as if it is flawed, then there becomes less and less to rely on. When one takes the liberty of pointing out its misgivings and incongruencies, when will that individual draw the line and say, “this is what remains…these are the real truths.” Maybe the dilemma is not in inconsistancies, but in our own misunderstanding. Maybe we need teachers to help us make sense of what we cannot understand — or cannot put together — on our own. After all, God did ordain them to be a part of how we understand Him.
How can one say that the Bible is theologically flawed? Who would have the authority to make such a claim? If it is theologically flawed, then I am at a loss. Why would I knowingly submit to a teaching that is tainted with that which is not true? Such a teaching would not be divine, nor of the inspiration of our Father. And if its teaching is off-base, then the whole of Christendom is gravely and tragically mistaken.
May 13th, 2012 at 3:06 am
Are people being punished by the law, or by their own sin? I agree with you, Stanley. Let them have their own laws. Let them legislate their own morality. Give them what their hearts desire, though letting them do so will be the hardest thing to do. God did not condone Israel’s many sins, but stopped interveining in restraining them from their evil desires, finally letting them endulge in everything they wanted — including other gods. They would not listen to Him, and they will not listen to us. They are seeking that which their hearts desire most in their depravity. Lets continue to pray for them, and continue to hold out the gospel for them with tears, God help us.
Chris Jager
Tillamook, OR
May 13th, 2012 at 4:51 am
I completely agree with Chris Jäger. God did not tell Isreal to enforce their laws on the Philistines and Gentiles. Romans 1:26 ”For this reason wGod gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, ymen committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. ” I didn’t see Jesus holding up unbelievers to the standard of the law. The truth is that they (just like us) are incapable of upholding the law. Even if they restrained thei outward physical actions, their inner hearts would burn with lust. Why demand they act as hypocrites or Pharisees who conform only in the outer behavior so that they can claim some sort of purity or adherence to the law. But no one keeps the law! And unbelievers don’t have the power of God to help them become sanctified on their inner hearts.
May 13th, 2012 at 9:30 am
Jackie,
God even let Israel walk away from the standard of the law in Israel’s own depravity. They sought after everything but their own holy God, so God finally let them have the longings of their hearts–and the consequences, tragic as they may be–that go along with those wicked desires.
While the current situation involves the American people and not primarily Israel (as they still do exist), I wonder how much our God has, in his common grace, held back the American culture in pursuing their own evil will. Will He remove His hand entirely, or has He already? Maybe I’m way off-base in assessing the situation, but it seems to me that if someone wants something evil, historically (in Scripture), God has eventually stopped interveining in his providential restraint.
Chris Jager
Tillamook, OR
May 13th, 2012 at 9:44 am
Brian from the comment above got it right!
“Opposing something and asking the state to enforce something are two very different things. You can either decide that the role of civil government is limited to protecting against force and fraud (murder, theft, etc.) or it should enforce all of Biblical law. But there is no rationale for drawing the line in between the two where we pick certain things that God hates and call those private sins and other things God hates and petition the government to ban them”
May 13th, 2012 at 11:49 am
However, giving up on society isn’t exactly neighbor-love. Nor is it our place to make that decision. We are called to love them, not make God’s decision in giving them over. Dr. Horton…indeed, “the law of marriage remains to the end of time—not just for Christians, but for all people everywhere.”
Chris Jager
Tillamook, OR
(sorry for the many posts)
May 13th, 2012 at 2:19 pm
The problem for the churches will be when pastors and priests are charged with a hate crime if a gay parishoner objects to sermon content or the fact that the church will not perform their wedding service (or rent them the space, even if the pastor or priest is not involved). The only way government can maintain so-called civil rights for homosexual behavior is to implement tyranny. BTW – I am dealing with this with my lesbian sister-in-law – there is no alternative other than for me to be in full agreement with her that homosexuality is not a sin (contrary to scripture), and that I must both accept and affirm it. She does claim to be a Christian, but she is not a sinner. I (who am all too aware of my own sin) pray for her. God is holy and just, the sinner who dares stand before him and shake his fist denying his sin has a total misunderstanding of Him. Thankfully, we have 1 Cor. 6:11 ‘And such were some of you.’
May 13th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
>>>>The problem for the churches will be when pastors and priests are charged with a hate crime if a gay parishoner objects to sermon content or the fact that the church will not perform their wedding service (or rent them the space, even if the pastor or priest is not involved).<<<<
This sort of thing may already be going on in Canada.
To the general topic, the idea of homosexual marriage in the United States will be charred to a crisp this November, wherever it is on the ballot. If it makes it to the Supreme Court it will probably also be shot down. It might possibly stagger past the 9th circuit.
But I still don't see the stickiness of this particular issue. Sexual relations, apart from those between a married man and his female wife are prohibited in Scripture. Sexual relations outside of those parameters are termed "fornication" in the book of Galatians (cf. BDAG Lexicon). Unlike the Apostle Paul under the rule of Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero, we actually have a say in what laws our government enacts. We are Caesar. Somehow I don't expect that God smiles upon Caesar supporting behaviors that are contrary to His written will.
But then again, this is America. And is you are hellbent that same sex marriages should be allowed, then you had better show up at the polls.
May 14th, 2012 at 12:26 am
[...] They then produced an extremely helpful follow up paper here on how to respond “Christianly” to the issue. Highly recommended! Read Part II here. [...]
May 14th, 2012 at 8:40 am
This is a great post & is indicative of why I love the White Horse Inn. Consistently, WHI avoids the silliness of the religious right while adhearing closely to what the bible actually says.
I approach this issue having gone bible college & then law school. For many years, I have thought that the State should no longer be in the business of marriage, being that it is essentially a religious institution. Our constitution severed other historially religious legal insitutions (for example, dealing with corpses), but not marriage. The state should only give civil unions & should do so in a manner consistent with the 14th Amendment’s equal protection clause.
That leaves marriage to the conscience of the Church, which is where the real battle should be. The problem in our society is not that gays want to marry & the state might let them–it is that Christian Churches want to marry gays, which is contrary to Christian doctrine.
May 14th, 2012 at 9:01 am
I haven’t read the comments yet, so I apologize if I’m repeating what someone has already said.
I think it is best to work toward separating the state from marriage altogether. A highly unlikely thing, obviously, but if it were, it might be a way of keeping the culture wars toned down, and this would be a good thing for all people of good will.
Gay marriage is not marriage. We know this. But a law (be it state law or an Amendment to the Constitution) affirming heterosexual marriage will not make heterosexual marriage more legitimate. Nor would a law legalizing (with all the attendant tax and other legal benefits) gay marriage legitimize gay marriage.
Marriage exists prior to the state. Thus, solutions to problems are likely to exist prior to the state as well. There is no law (yet) forbidding the Christian to talk with one’s neighbor about the truth of marriage.
Relatedly, I sense a fear among fundamentalists that if we don’t “do something,” e.g. pass a law banning gay marriage or defining heterosexual marriage, God will be angry with America and not bless it.
I’m not equipped to answer this except to say that long before gay marriage became a fashionable issue, marriage in America was not in good shape.
Marriage matters. But it should be obvious that state intervention has done little to preserve it.
May 15th, 2012 at 6:31 am
Dr. Horton,
Thank you for this response. I appreciate it, especially the comment, “I recognize the former as wrestling as much as I’m trying to with the neighbor-love question”.
There are many nuances with this conversation that it is a matter of wrestling. Especially as I have friends, both heterosexual and homosexual, both Christian and non-Christian, who come down on both sides of the issue. It is good to know that I am not the only one who is wrestling/has wrestled with this issue.
I am not certain that I agree with the correlation/causation question about the destruction of society. And honestly, I wish I could ask about a million questions about this (and probably a dozen other topics). I do greatly appreciate WHI and the work you are doing. It has meant so much to me over the past 2-3 years as I journey out of 20+ years in Baptist Fundamentalism. Thanks again.
May 15th, 2012 at 7:34 pm
Can’t it simply be argued that same-sex marriage doesn’t create babies? haha
May 16th, 2012 at 10:34 am
I have been thinking much about this subject and I have a few other thoughts to add to Dr. Hortons:
1) I think we need to be careful to differentiate between Nature’s marriage (as defined by Nature in Creation by God). And secular marriage where the secular state saw marriage in Creation and decided to give it, its blessing because it saw the benefit towards its society. Namely that martial unions create the healthiest (and most populist) societies. It is therefore in society’s best interest to protect marriage as a man and woman, and to dissuade people from any alternative lifestyle and divorce. One can be “married” by the state and not acknowledged by the Church, and vice-a-versa. Surely we also should make it clear that Nature trumps state.
2) We need to defend traditional marriage (for both renditions, Nature and State), for a few reasons and not exhaustively: A) TM pleases God (and is how Nature was made) B) TM makes the healthiest and most successful societies C) TM makes the happiest relationships D) TM makes for the best chance to raise the most healthy and happy children. Of course there are always examples that go against the norm, but the minority shouldn’t rule the majority.
3) My biggest fear is giving LBGT “approval” and “protection” in society so that my liberty to raise my children the way I want is taken away, and I am forced to have them indoctrinated into beliefs that I do not agree with, and beliefs that will do harm and confuse my children. To me (besides it not pleasing God) my biggest concern is how it will take away my liberty to dissent and disagree and raise my kids my way.
We currently live in a country where we are allowed to disagree and voice our disagreement (it is slowly being taken away), and if LBGT marriage is approved Federally, then we will not be allowed to dissent and our “Free Speech” rights will be taken away in yet another area. (I have a less problem with the state level because I can always move states).
May 16th, 2012 at 11:26 am
@Ryan wrote: “My biggest fear is giving LBGT “approval” and “protection” in society so that my liberty to raise my children the way I want is taken away, and I am forced to have them indoctrinated into beliefs that I do not agree with, and beliefs that will do harm and confuse my children. To me (besides it not pleasing God) my biggest concern is how it will take away my liberty to dissent and disagree and raise my kids my way.”
I think this is very important.
I have this feeling that the next type of inquisition will not have to do confessing Christ, but rather how we answer two questions: what do we think of evolution, and what do we think of homosexuality. You are more likely to face push-back, ridicule, and other negative consequences because of your views of those two issues than you are because of your ideas of Christ. Moreover, you are likely to receive this push-back from Christians as well as unbelievers.
May 18th, 2012 at 12:22 am
[...] == "undefined"){ addthis_share = [];}The radical two-kingdoms perspective has recently addressed homosexual marriage. The result has been erudition in the service of confusion. This result [...]
May 19th, 2012 at 5:03 am
[...] Why Christians should oppose same-sex marriage from the guys at The White Horse Inn… [...]
May 29th, 2012 at 4:40 am
What will you say if/when, same sex couples request that your church baptise them or their adopted children, will you be fair or right, right as in Scripturally right ??? Or when Homosexual christians apply to teach in your Christian school or even sunday school and you are now under the same anti-discrimination laws as everyone else, will you still just love them and point them around the outskirts of scripture, or engineer scripture so you can let them participate. Stand up for the Scripture or at the very least, the children. Single or married, we shouldn`t cosy up with the world, that is not Jesus way.
May 29th, 2012 at 4:50 am
In Australia one denomination openly rejects much of Pauls letters and allows female pastors, by doing this it has set a precident that the scriptures are up for modernising, now they also allow homsexual pastors. If we condone same-sex marriage why would we hesitate in allowing threesome marriages, marriages between a man and his dog, or a marriage between two in-love males one aged 25 one aged 13 ??? Please someone tell the people asking the questions, what is healthy about anal sex ?
May 29th, 2012 at 7:03 pm
Johannes:
You raise some important considerations. I think the approach in the U.S. to these types of things being forced upon us should be similar to the approach the Roman Catholic Church is taking in opposing birth control insurance coverage for their employees. They are opposing it on religious freedom grounds. In recent polls, Americans side overwhelmingly with proponents of religious freedom.
Regarding the notion of homosexual marriage gaining traction in the United States, the issue will die as quickly as the sitting President of the U.S. goes down in defeat this November. Same sex marriage has never come close to successfully winning support when it as been put to a referendum. That’s because the majority of Americans oppose it. We are only hearing the hue and cry now (maybe same sex supporters scream louder in California) because the President is pandering to that crowd. He held them in limbo for four years and now that he desperately needs their support, he’s for them becoming husband and wife. American politics is an extraordinarily cynical business.
Lastly, in America there are a lot of people that sort of root for the underdog, even if the values of the underdog are diametrically opposed to their own. You’ll hear stuff like, “Yes but shouldn’t they have the right to . . .” or “. . . why should we have only our values as the standard for people not like us?” When you hear this sort of thing, you can be sure that those making such statements have never given much thought to the documents upon which this nation was founded.
September 5th, 2012 at 3:29 pm
[...] a few quick comments about how R2K theology is rapidly running out of options. A few months ago, Michael Horton explained how concervative Christians could (tentatively) support domestic partnerships for homosexual [...]
December 31st, 2012 at 4:21 am
[...] visione teologica dei “Due Regni” (di qui in poi R2K, Radical 2 Kingdoms)* ha di recente affrontato la questione del matrimonio omosessuale. Il risultato è stato che hanno messo la loro erudizione [...]
March 23rd, 2013 at 10:50 pm
I’d like to know what the author thinks Christians (or anyone really) are to believe is the “properly coercive power of the state”.