A Response to John Frame’s The Escondido Theology
I’ve been reluctant to respond to Professor Frame’s The Escondido Theology, published recently by Whitefield Media. Since the book focuses its critique on Westminster Seminary California, where I teach, I’d encourage readers to visit the Seminary website for a brief response from our president, W. Robert Godfrey. It would be of no edifying value to anyone to go into the details of John Frame’s departure from WSC. Suffice it to say that there are two sides to every story and if you’ve read The Escondido Theology, you have only heard one side whose details many of us would dispute. None of this matters in any case for the general good of the church and the Great Commission, so I will not raise it here.
There are a lot of criticisms in the book directed at my writing, so I’ll say a brief word about it. Having read the book recently, my reluctance is due primarily to the fact that I don’t know quite where to begin and to respond point by point may not contribute much to the cause.
The bottom line for me is this. Whether intentionally misleading or merely sloppy, this book represents a new low in intra-Reformed polemics. I’m encouraged to hear that various Reformed companies declined to publish the book. It is so replete with caricatures, misrepresentations, and straw opponents that a healthy debate on important issues is aborted at the outset. If I held some of the views John attributes to me, I would be alarmed as well. Old grudges appear to cloud his judgment, even to the point of defending Joel Osteen, for example, against my critique (which, again, he caricatures). I hope readers of John’s book will also consult the books that he attacks rather than take his word for it that they say what he claims.
John Frame has consistently defended “evangelical reunion,” even while questioning the ecumenical formulation of the Trinity, the Reformed regulative principle of worship, and downplaying many historic categories of classical Reformed theology. He often scolds those who take creedal and confessional subscription seriously, while even defending people like Joel Osteen with remarkable sympathy.
There’s a history here of being nicer to those outside Reformed circles than within. A while back, John’s critique of David Wells’ scholarly study of evangelicalism and American culture (acclaimed by many outside as well as inside Reformed circles) went in tandem with his odd arguments against Richard Muller, the dean of Reformed scholasticism specialists. (See Richard Muller’s response in Westminster Theological Journal 59 [1997]: 301-310.) I wish I had the good sense of humor expressed by David Wells’ response, “On Being Framed” (in that same issue). John seems to be the least charitable to those who are most convinced of the distinctive contributions of the Reformed tradition and who, despite their long and serious contributions to the evangelical movement, are worried that it has become too captive to modernity.
A number of John’s claims cluster around the charge of being “Lutheran.” Yet he does not represent Lutheranism fairly (lacking serious documentation for sweeping generalizations); nor does he represent my views accurately. So there is only a vague suspicion, with the terrifying prospect that in spite of all of their notable feuds, Luther and Calvin—and their heirs—might nevertheless have been leaders of the same magisterial Reformation. Apparently, my association with Baptists does not raise eyebrows, but Lutheranism is beyond the pale.
This would have been odd even to American Presbyterian and Reformed folks a century ago. Charles Hodge and B. B. Warfield, Geerhardus Vos and Herman Bavinck, would not have understood this development. Of course, they also defended Reformed distinctives over against Lutheran, Baptist, and other positions. Nevertheless, they took it for granted that confessional Lutheran and Reformed Christians were natural allies, joined at the hip on major issues.
Just for the record, I am not a Lutheran or a Baptist, as my Lutheran and Baptist friends will attest. Unlike Calvin, Bucer and other Reformed leaders, I have never signed the Augsburg Confession. My confession, without reservation, remains the Three Forms of Unity and the Westminster Standards. That should be clear enough to anybody who has read my books, including my systematic theology, The Christian Faith.
Doubtless, there are many reasons for the fear of “Lutheranism” among some in our circles. Since the Great Awakening, pietism and revivalism have formed the ties that bind American Protestants. Confessional Lutheran and Reformed immigrants didn’t quite fit and they were often only too happy to remain in relative isolation. Ever since the “Shepherd controversy” (see below), some (like Professor Frame) have sought to distance Reformed theology as much as possible from Luther and Lutheranism, even as they embrace other non-Reformed traditions (from broad evangelicalism in some cases to Roman Catholic and Orthodox perspectives in others). So “Lutheranism” becomes the bogeyman for a lot of sweeping charges that are not fair to Lutherans, much less to Reformed people who recognize important areas of common agreement.
Let me briefly summarize the rest of my response under the four following points of criticism:
1. Two Kingdoms
First, WSC has no official litmus test on “two kingdoms.” Our president, Robert Godfrey, is a committed Kuyperian and Kuyper’s legacy is seen by many of us here as closer in some respects to a “two kingdoms” view than many neo-Kuyperians assume today. (For example, Kuyper’s “sphere sovereignty” distinguishes clearly between what the church is authorized to do as an institution and what Christians are authorized to do in various callings.) None of us has presented the idea as a test of orthodoxy in Reformed circles; on the contrary, some of our friends have turned its denial into a test.
Where Reformed theology sees distinctions without separation, John often seems to press a false choice. If you distinguish our heavenly and temporal citizenship, then he suspects that you separate them, denying the latter. (The same tendency is evident in the law-gospel distinction below: either law and gospel are really the same or you deny the former.)
From the days when I was John’s student, I have heard his defenses of theonomy (or Christian Reconstruction). Although he dissented on some points, he seemed to appreciate the movement’s broader emphases. Years ago, the faculties of Westminster Philadelphia and California produced Theonomy: A Reformed Critique (Zondervan, 1990), edited by William Barker and W. Robert Godfrey. Richard Gaffin, Jr., defended amillennialism and Will Barker articulated a biblical-Reformed case for political “pluralism.” Put those together and you basically have “two kingdoms.” Other great essays were included by Tim Keller, John Meuther, and terrific historical chapters by Robert Godfrey (on Calvin) and Sinclair Ferguson (on the Westminster Confession). John Frame contributed a chapter trying to unite theonomists and their critics. My point is that a critique of “one kingdom” thinking by the joint faculties of both Westminsters was mainstream in 1990. I’m sure that John didn’t agree with everything in that volume, but to my knowledge he didn’t call his colleagues “Lutheran,” even though it expresses the views that we at WSC still hold today.
Calvin embraced the “two kingdoms” doctrine explicitly—in those terms. Of course, it was the era of “Christendom,” where Luther no less than Calvin expected the civil magistrate to defend the true faith. Nevertheless, at least in theory, he made precisely the same arguments as Luther. I wonder if those sympathetic to theonomy or making America a “Christian nation” are really serious. Do they really want the White House or the legislative or judicial branches to enforce the first table of the law? Will orthodox Protestants be the only ones allowed to rule, or will a few Roman Catholics, Jews, and perhaps a conservative mainliner or two pass the Senate confirmation hearings? This is not to say that God’s moral law is no longer in force, that it no longer expresses God’s eternal measure of righteousness. Rather, it is to recognize that the New Testament teaches us to live as “strangers and aliens” in this present age, loving and serving our neighbors through our callings, witnessing God’s Word to them, and contributing toward the common good of a city that is important but never ultimate.
Although John’s book claims that this idea of “two kingdoms” is an extreme view, he explicitly states that he isn’t interested in engaging with David Van Drunen or others who have explored the history of Reformed interpretation in detail. So he turns to an exegetical critique that turns out to be thin on exegesis. Only by reducing the view to a caricature is he able to refute a straw position.
With Luther, Calvin, and, yes, Kuyper, a proper Reformed view of Christ and culture affirms God’s lordship over all spheres of life, while nevertheless distinguishing between the way Christ rules his church by his Word and Spirit from the way he rules in providence and common grace. Why did Luther call them “the kingdom of the left hand” and “the kingdom of the right hand”? Because they were both God’s hands! It affirms that special revelation clarifies general revelation, the latter of which we by nature suppress in unrighteousness (although, as Van Til pointed out, sinners can’t suppress everything at the same time). The church proclaims God’s Word, both the law and the gospel, to the world. Where it speaks, we speak. Neither I nor my colleagues teach anything remotely suggestive of the idea that the Bible has no bearing on the convictions and actions of Christians in the public square.
Let me offer an example. I hold a pro-life stance as a Christian, on the basis of the biblical truths of creation, fall, redemption, and the consummation—as well as explicit commands for extending love to neighbors. I make those convictions explicit even in talking to non-Christians. However, because they are made in God’s image and cannot suppress everything at the same time, and the Spirit is also at work restraining evil in common grace, I can appeal to what I know they know even as they suppress its logical conclusions. As Calvin reminds us, “The moral law is nothing other than the natural law that is written on the conscience of all.” Of all people, Christians should not remain passive in the face of slavery, abortion, racism, exploitation, injustice, and failures to be stewards of God’s good creation. However, they can work alongside non-Christians in these callings without having the church bind their consciences about specific policies or agendas that are not authorized by God’s Word.
In content, this natural law is a revelation of God’s righteousness, justice, power, and moral will—distinct from the revelation of his saving will (the gospel) in Jesus Christ. Here, as in many cases throughout John’s critique, crucial distinctions are often blurred and then if you deny this synthesis you are accused of not holding to both.
2. Law and Gospel
At first, John seems to affirm the distinction. He even concedes that Calvin and Reformed writers affirmed it as well as Luther and Lutheranism. What he’s against is a “radical law-gospel antithesis.” Yet once again, his own alternative is a blurring of the distinction altogether. The gospel includes commands and the law includes gracious promises, he argues. So it’s not clear to me whether he affirms the distinction or denies it, but the latter seems to be the last word. If he were to say that the covenant of grace includes commands (or that there are commands to repent and believe the gospel), who could argue? But these commands to repent and believe (and obey) are not the gospel; they are the proper response to it. Or, if he were to say that the gospel was promised to the old covenant saints through types and shadows, again, who could take issue? Yet to say that the gospel itself is law and the law itself is gospel is not to hold them together; it’s to make them one and the same thing.
In the 1970s, Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia was racked by a controversy surrounding Norman Shepherd’s denial of the classic Reformation doctrine of justification. The law and the gospel were confused. Well did Calvin’s sidekick Theodore Beza remark that “This confusion over law and gospel has been and remains the greatest source of corruption and abuses in the church.” Eventually, Professor Shepherd resigned and left the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Two decades later, the theonomy debate stirred the pot. And more recently, the “Federal Vision” movement arose in our circles, largely out of these two tributaries.
In each of these challenges to the Reformed confession, John’s sympathies have been explicit. While demurring on some points, he has defended and endorsed these movements’ writings even as both “Westminsters” and all of the conservative Reformed and Presbyterian denominations have ruled them beyond the bounds of the confession. The two forewords to The Escondido Theology are written by noted theonomists. One vigorous endorsement of The Escondido Theology comes from a theonomist and Federal Visionist who denies the imputation of Christ’s righteousness in justification. It is this neonomian paradigm that conflicts with the Reformed confession. Reformed critics, however, are dismissed as “Lutherans” or “Machen’s warrior children.”
This is ironic. Sadly, I’m not surprised that he appreciates their blurring of the distinction of law and gospel or of justification and sanctification. What does surprise me is that someone who is so adamant against anything that smacks of similarity to a “Lutheran” scheme is so sympathetic to a movement that embraces baptismal regeneration and the possibility of losing one’s justification/regeneration.
In both his exegesis and passing historical remarks, John refutes a position that nobody (at least nobody at WSC) holds and then jettisons a distinction that Reformed as well as Lutheran theology regards as fundamental and crucial. He shows little interest in wrestling with the historical debates, because he embraces “something close to biblicism.” In other words, his exegesis of Scripture trumps everyone else’s; what he believes is “biblical” is therefore “Reformed,” even if it goes against the consensus of Reformed interpretation.
3. Application of God’s Word to All of Life
Related to the previous points, John misrepresents me (and my colleagues) as teaching that we should not apply God’s Word to all areas of life.
First, given the fact that John has been critical of the traditional Reformed application of God’s Word to worship in the “regulative principle,” this is an odd charge. Not even the regular preaching of the Word is an essential element in the public service, John argues in this book (and elsewhere). It would surely be odd if one thought the Bible sufficient for politics, but not for the worship and government of the church.
Second, according to John, I relegate God’s Word to the private life of individuals or the corporate life of the church, having nothing to do with the believer’s stewardship and vocations in the world. I don’t know how anyone could conclude this from anything I have written. In fact, I’ve written books on the role of the law in the Christian life (The Law of Perfect Freedom), the importance of a world-embracing vision of Christian vocation in all spheres (Where in the World is the Church?), and the importance of engaging in culture with godly discernment (Beyond Culture Wars). John even alleges that we don’t talk enough about the Great Commission, when it forms the backbone of much of our curriculum. By the way, I wrote a book on the Great Commission, which also clearly advocates Christian involvement in the world and application of God’s Word to all areas of life.
One point where John is especially egregious in his misrepresentations of my view concerns the third use of the law. At the outset, this would hardly be a “Lutheran” move, since Melanchthon first coined the “third use” and it was included in the Book of Concord in the section against the antinomians. Furthermore, in many places I’ve argued that Calvin and other Reformed writers more carefully nuanced the position and emphasized the third use (including the importance of a disciplined life and church). There are important differences between Lutheran and Reformed traditions. However, those differences pale in comparison with the denial of the important distinctions that both traditions affirm together and writers like John Frame either deny or confuse.
4. Translation
In several places John is irritated by my suggestion that we have bent over backwards “translating” the gospel in terms not only that people can understand but that they can accept. It’s not a question of making it communicable, but palatable. Another distinction he doesn’t seem to recognize in my argument. Of course, I affirm translating the Bible into vernacular languages (where would the contrary assumption be gleaned from anything I’ve said)? Of course, I believe that we need to communicate clearly and effectively, drawing analogies from everyday life in our own day. Of all the reviews I’ve seen, only John’s interprets me as suggesting that we should just read the words of the Bible and not try to explain it to people.
What I point to explicitly is something like Paul Tillich’s “method of correlation,” where you ask the world to define the questions and then go to the Bible for the answers. The wrong assumption here is that we already know what we need before God tells us. In opposing this tendency to accommodate God’s radical Word to the fallen mind and heart, I am simply defending what Kuyper and Van Til referred to as the “antithesis” between godly and ungodly thinking. It’s surprising that a distinguished disciple of Cornelius Van Til would take issue with that argument. (He also takes issue with my advocacy of the archetypal-ectypal distinction—and the analogical view of human knowledge—evidently siding more with Gordon Clark over Van Til in that important debate.)
Conclusion
Speaking for myself, I have endeavored to explore the riches that I have discovered personally in the catholic, evangelical and Reformed heritage. I owe much of my deepest convictions to professors I had at Westminster California, including Edmund Clowney (who helped me understand, among many other things, “two kingdoms” thinking without calling it that), Robert Godfrey, Robert Strimple, M. G. Kline, Dennis Johnson, and others.
In spite of the seriousness with which I take my calling as a minister, I don’t doubt my capacity for error and the need to be open to critique. Reviews are great ways of taking on board important critiques that lead to further reflection and correction. However, as I tell students in class, you have to earn the right to critique first by stating the position held by others in terms that they would at least recognize as fair. It’s one thing to say that you believe a certain view should lead logically to such-and-such a conclusion; it’s quite another to misrepresent someone’s view as actually advocating a position that he or she in fact rejects.
All that I ask is that those who disagree with my arguments in fact disagree with my arguments, not with John Frame’s description of them. Do not assume that if you’ve read The Escondido Theology you actually have any grasp of what I or any of us teach at Westminster Seminary California. Like all of my colleagues, I’m trying to participate in a long conversation that is both appreciative and self-critical of our tradition’s interpretation and application of God’s Word so that the church can be more faithful in this generation. It is a work in progress, and our differences among ourselves as a faculty are treated as the grist for the mill of constant dialogue and mutual correction.
Unlike the days when I was a student, there are no factions on the faculty or among the student body. There is a wonderful spirit of mutual trust, spirited discussion—even debate, and, above all, a common conviction that it’s not about us or any party that we might form around ourselves. We’re collaborating in preparing pastors, missionaries, and teachers to bring all of God’s Word to all of the world in all of the ways that our Lord mandates in his Great Commission. We do need to have healthy debate and discussion in our circles of these important issues. We all tend to emphasize the points that we think are being obscured or over-emphasized by others. However, the level of the conversation in conservative Reformed circles has to improve. Otherwise, our internecine squabbles and confusion will thwart the great promise of a tradition that has always sought, at least at its best, to be “Reformed and always reforming according to the Word of God.”


February 10th, 2012 at 8:39 am
Good response and so important for you to respond to this book, Dr. Horton. I was very disturbed to read this book put out and promoted by people I know and it made me want to chuck theology altogether. It gave me a very heavy heart, even though I don’t know all the concepts involved. I expect men of God to play fair and hurt when I feek that they aren’t playing fair.
I like the concepts of grace and truth, but not divisive debate WITH PERSONALITIES CITED which in my humble opinion does little to advance Christ’s kingdom or to maintain the unity in the church. I did blog about the book in November of 2011 on Millennial Dreams and my title was “Can’t We All Just Get Along?”
February 10th, 2012 at 9:41 am
[...] Update: Michael Horton’s response [...]
February 10th, 2012 at 9:55 am
[...] [...]
February 10th, 2012 at 11:01 am
(1 Cor. 1:10-13) Dr. Horton’s response graciously, clearly and firmly reveals the sad fact that Frame’s “Escondido” book displays not an “understanding” of either the Reformed tradition nor the theology of the staff of WSCAL. Rather, Frame’s book displays an “over-standing” of both the Reformed tradition and the theology of WSCAL. Specifically, Frame’s perspective (read: “overstanding”) of the Reformed tradition and WSCAL on this issue lacks (among other things) what Kevin Vanhoozer calls, “interpretive virtues” (Is there a Meaning in This Text? Zondervan 1998). By this term Vanhoozer presents a solid case that true understanding requires the reader to first “stand under” the text (in this case the text of WSCAL & the Reformed tradition) and thus make every effort not to “stand over” the author’s text in order to rewrite the author’s intended meaning into one’s personal concerns/views. Rather, by employing interpretive virtue of understanding one should thus use diligent care in order to faithfully represent the primary authorial intent embedded within the text before adding one’s critique/perspective. Since Frame’s “overstanding” (read: divisive re-construal) represents (re-presents!) neither WSCAL’s theology nor the Reformed tradition on this issue he is thus “standing over” the “texts” of both WSCAL and the Reformed tradition by “using” these text to promote his personal ideology rather than taking care to first represent faithfully the theology of WSCAL and the Reformed tradition on this issue. (BTW, mea culpa: I have been guilty of this myself in my younger, more Pharisaical years.) ~ Alex Garleb (WSCAL 2007)
February 10th, 2012 at 11:29 am
Dr. Horton, thank you for this reply. I haven’t read Dr. Frame’s book, but I made the same connection you did with Machen’s Warrior Children, and wonder to myself why I should take his critique seriously in light of that article. His book and article seem so blatantly self-contradictory that I’m not sure I ever will read his new book.
I’m posting here for this reason: While I appreciate the things you said in this reply, I’m really writing to let you know how much I admire the TONE you take. I’m sure writing this article must have been exceptionally difficult on a personal level. You could have easily taken cheap shots, but you don’t. Instead, you display a great deal of restraint and professionalism, continually regarding Dr. Frame as a man still worthy of respect in spite of it all. This, I believe, demonstrates more than words alone, that the theology you espouse is truly coming from a good, loving, and holy God. For it reflects his character to us all.
Thank you for all of you hard work. May the LORD bless you and keep you, make his face to shine upon you and give you peace.
February 10th, 2012 at 12:00 pm
I like to see this as a good open debate myself, and oh yes.. always ‘ad hoc’. John Frame is older, and that always sets first with me at least, but then I am older too (62). And yes, I have read Frame’s book here, and personally I think modern Federal Calvinism needs a good kick in the can now and then!
*I would hope too, that this presses us back into the real Luther!
February 10th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
You mention early on in your reply to John that you are glad to hear that “various Reformed companies declined to publish the book.” There is no basis for that statement. I was present with John when Whitefield Media offered to publish the manuscript, and up to that point John had only spoken with P&R, who had not declined to publish.
February 10th, 2012 at 12:45 pm
For those interested, D.G. Hart in a recent post outlines the views of former WTS president Edmund Clowney on the subject of the two kingdoms. Apparently, the Escondido Theology didn’t originate in Escondido, but was being taught by Frame’s former boss at Westminster Philadelphia back in 1979.
http://oldlife.org/2012/01/escondido-theology-before-escondido/
February 10th, 2012 at 1:26 pm
Btw, just to make a personal point, though I am as an Anglican, somewhat Federal Vision friendly, I do myself hold to the both the active & passive obedience of Christ! And I can say this myself, I have not found enjoyment in the general treatment of the WTS toward the FV. And again, the FV is just that, a “Vision” theologically, and not a full-blown theology, Calvinist or otherwise! And certainly some of the FV statements have been sometimes poor theologically. But as the Semper Reformada (always reforming), we all ebb & flow! But I am happy to be an old Reformed Anglican!
February 10th, 2012 at 3:03 pm
I want to say “right on” to Doug’s comment about your tone in this article. I have been blown away by the negative connotations and false representation of 2K. As I’ve commented earlier, the shame is (besides the ugliness to those watching Reformed combat) the fact that this helpful doctrine is not known well by ordinary people. As a mom, I find it to be extremely equipping and encouraging to my vocation. I wrote an essay about this that was published in Modern Reformation Sept./Oct. 2010, called “The Two Kingdoms Homemaker.”
February 10th, 2012 at 5:24 pm
Also I would want to say, that I would not follow Frame’s critique towards Richard Muller! And of course most of Muller’s theological work is historical. Muller’s Oxford book: The Unaccommodated Calvin, Studies in the Foundation of a Theological Tradition, is simply one of my very favorite Calvin historical studies!
February 10th, 2012 at 6:05 pm
Thank you for this response. I did not need it but maybe it will help others who do. The way forward, theologically, is often the way back. I appreciate WSC’s attempts to go forward by helping us go back to understand the Reformed theological tradition. Keep up the good work!
February 10th, 2012 at 7:12 pm
[...] have to have some discussion here in the ‘house of the most recent Frame job. Horton, in his response, captures very well a thought I’ve had before: This is ironic…that someone who is so [...]
February 10th, 2012 at 7:17 pm
Dr. Horton,
I know that you have mentioned works in this post; however, would there be a specific book or two that you would suggest to read alongside of Dr. Frame’s book that would actually counter his assertions and be more representative of your side?
In Christ Jesus Our Precious Lord and Savior!
Michael Lawmaster
February 10th, 2012 at 9:02 pm
How is it that a theologian as erudite, intelligent, and well read as Dr. Frame can be so out in left field in his WSC critique? (which, btw, I am not saying he actually is, but that is basically what you are saying in your response). I have read a good bit of his work and he’s not exactly a dull knife, in fact in many ways he’s exceptional…I might even assert he has greater intellectual gifts than any of the professors he criticizes in Escondido. I think WSC needs to have a direct and full response to his book, because claiming (as Jason Stellman does) that he is simply grumpy about losing his old position at WSC simply isn’t going to cut it.
Thanks
February 11th, 2012 at 6:23 am
Since this is not YouTube I won’t reference honey badger. Coming from a quasi-theonimous background that permeated an environment of “us vs. them” approach to the world, I have been freed of many burdens as I have come to embrace a 2k approach to life. I no longer “size people up” as I viewed them in “their” sinfulness and depravity. 2k has helped free me to love my neighbor and preach the Gospel to them in love not judgement (for that would be God’s role).
I can remember the exact place I was when WSC alum Brett McNeil challenged me about my theonimous ways in asking, “in which of the ten commandments are you going to choose to jail someone for breaking the law since you want to institute them as the law of the land?”. Of course I had bailed on church the Sunday prior so definitely not the 5th…and I just had a couple blow outs with my dad…so probably not the 6th…So this started a journey of wrestling with what I believe and how in Christ I relate to the world.
Not that I am trying to have a love fest and hail all things WSC, but the 2k/ “Escondido Theology” has been the very substance that has nourished me to engage, share, and love (for Christ) the very world that I judged and shunned as a theonimous. I know this is completely anecdotal and theolosophically weak, but I just thought it important to share from the perspective of someone with no seminary background, a pew sitting parishioner, that has switched “sides”. Where my 2k friends were once suspect, I now love on my theonimous brothers and sisters.
February 11th, 2012 at 6:45 am
I too appreciate both the substance and tone of this reply. And with that in mind, I wonder if Dr. Frame has actually done the 2k perspective a tremendous favor by publishing this book since it has presented an opportunity to correct caricatures and misunderstandings of 2k theology (that is, if people are willing to listen).
February 11th, 2012 at 10:26 am
[...] http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2012/02/10/a-response-to-john-frames-the-escondido-theology/ [...]
February 11th, 2012 at 11:26 am
Thank you, Dr. Horton. This is an excellent response. There is so much that has been good about Dr. Frame’s scholarship in the past; it’s really too bad that he has allowed whatever personal feelings he has to compromise his own objectivity to such a degree. As someone who has sat under your teaching (and that of the other ‘Escondido theologians’), it is very sad and frustrating to hear and read such obviously misrepresentative critiques. Your conclusion says it well, and I hope that the critics of WSC will actually now take the time to read the works of you and your colleagues, instead of assuming the validity of Dr. Frame’s misrepresentative caricatures.
February 11th, 2012 at 11:51 am
Since I have gotten quite a bit of blog and e-mail traffic myself on or over John Frame’s book, I again hope this can become something of a real dialogue! Everyone theological knows the Reformed are always hot on issues, especially theological one’s. So we should apply the great ‘Semper Reformada’ here! But, one simply must read Frame’s book before they perhaps choose sides. I have not myself chosen fully for Frame or WTS, though as I have written I find John Frame and the FV as well, worth the read and study. Again, I hope this can be a learning curve for all of us! Yes, or no, we will not all come down on the same side, but we should engage as all ‘In Christ’!
February 11th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
As far as choosing sides goes, I don’t think everyone needs to read Frame’s book before choosing. I have not read everything the WSC men have published, nor Frame’s book. But I have read enough of both the WSC men and Frame to know that I will give the WSC men the benefit of the doubt. The way the book was advertized made it sound as if Frame was accusing them of being outside Reformed confessional bounds. This seems a bit much to me. Someone might reply, “But this is John Frame we are talking about.” Someone might counter that with, “Yes, it is, isn’t it.”
February 11th, 2012 at 3:26 pm
Well @Rich, hopefully we can move into the theological issues themselves, and not so much our favorite personalities! I for one like many WTS guys, both in the past and present, but that does include John Frame doesn’t it! So again, we simply have to read the issues theological! And as I said, we are not all going to agree, or fall into the same theological places, Reformed, Lutheran or whatever. One area I do agree with Frame is both the rejection or misunderstanding of the interior and mystical place of the human subjectivity in the Christian life, by many Reformed. And also an overt kind of radical confessionalism. Of course as an Anglican I would like to see the Ecumenical Councils, and especially the Nicene Creed and “homoousios” in both a Christocentric and a Christology that is theocentric, more in the Reformed places.
Finally, one reason I support the FV somewhat, is the need of a renewed place of both Word & Sacrament in the Reformed Community. But, I did enjoy D. G. Hart’s book: John Williamson Nevin, High Church Calvinist, (P&R).
February 11th, 2012 at 4:30 pm
My point was a very theological one. From my present understanding, based on reading Frame and various present WSC professors, I think the present WSC men are more faithful to the historic Reformed theological tradition as embodied in the Reformed symbols. For instance, Horton said this, “John Frame has consistently defended “evangelical reunion,” even while questioning the ecumenical formulation of the Trinity, the Reformed regulative principle of worship, and downplaying many historic categories of classical Reformed theology. He often scolds those who take creedal and confessional subscription seriously, while even defending people like Joel Osteen with remarkable sympathy.” I have read enough of Frame to agree with Horton. I agree, not because Horton said it, but because what he said is, in fact, the case. Now, my present thinking on this matter might be wrong-headed, but it is not based on personalities. It is based on the assessment of reading these men and comparing what I read to what I know of creedal and confessional Reformed theology.
February 11th, 2012 at 5:18 pm
@Rich this issue you bring up appears very ‘ad-hoc’ to me. Indeed we all have feet of clay, something quite hard for many Reformed and Calvinistic people and folk to grapple with. I think myself that John Frame has some legitimate places in the fallibility of the modern or todays Reformed Federal Calvinist theology, as I too have mentioned. But, I am seeking a more ‘in house’ Reformed theological need and argument. I can really note this as an Anglican, and one also really into Luther’s theology. (Note “Luther” and not Lutheranism, so much..
)
February 11th, 2012 at 8:52 pm
Dr. Horton, the point in your last paragraph is pure gold, and especially poignant following your gracious response to Dr. Frame. I admire you both, and think it would be just like God to use this conflict as a stage on which to demonstrate the right way to resolve conflict between blood bought brothers.
While on this subject, I thought you also demonstrated great grace and humility while defending your own book on the Christ the Center program recently. Many blessings to you as you continue to serve by your teaching and example!
February 11th, 2012 at 9:07 pm
Rich,
I am reading the book right now, “The Escondido Theology”, and I think the “WSC men” need to respond to the criticisms being leveled in it. If in fact those criticisms are without merit, they need to show us why. I think that John Frame’s credibility as a clear thinker and an astute theologian lend some credence to his words. After all, it’s not as if the book was written by a hack. That being the case, his words shouldn’t be so easily cast aside and the very convenient “grumpy former employee of WSC” card need not be played. That is a total cop out
However, I do find it odd that you would be defending a group of men who, by and large, don’t think Reformed Baptist churches are true churches of Christ (R. Scott Clark, for example). And yet, Frame gets grief for defending Joel Osteen? Well, Frame isn’t defending Osteen’s theology, etc. He defends the right of his church and ministry to be called “Christian” in spite of it’s theological shortcomings.
February 11th, 2012 at 9:43 pm
DNH, I normally do not interact with those who do not identify themselves but I will this time. As I stated above, I think the current WSC men are more faithful than Frame to the historic Reformed theological tradition as embodied in the Reformed symbols. I understand why Clark does not consider Reformed Baptist churches as true churches and I disagree with him. He will change his view one day.
As I see it now (and I think there are many others who see it this way), the current WSC men seem to be better rooted in the tradition – two examples being 1) their position on the RPW and 2) their stand against the Federal Vision.
February 12th, 2012 at 9:50 am
DNH, I am hoping you will exercise the same thoughtfulness you request of others. The comment, “…I do find it odd that you would be defending a group of men who, by and large, don’t think Reformed Baptist churches are true churches of Christ (R. Scott Clark, for example).” does not contribute to this conversation for the very fact that some students/graduates of WSC are Reformed Baptists. Either WSC does a poor job of convincing these “non-true churchers” of their errors, or the “by and large” do not hold to this caricature.
Dr. Horton obviously disagrees with this position for the very fact that Dr. Ken Jones has been a core contributor of WHI. Let’s get back to the issue of this discussion which is Frame’s critique of “Escondido Theology” and WSC and Dr. Horton’s response.
Frame’s book has already received a charitable response from both WSC and Dr. Horton. It would do us all well to spend more time reading the books of men more learned than most of us.
February 12th, 2012 at 10:53 am
It is rather sad really that these kind of things turn back upon peoples favorite teachers, rather than the theological issues that are brought up. I can see that some here at least appear not to have read Frame’s book? Of course I am the odd man out here, as both an Anglican, and one somewhat friendly to the FV. But, I feel I am certainly Reformed myself, I wonder how many have read the Irish Articles 1615, noting of course the great Archbishop James Ussher? I say this to make a point. There is Reformed theological and creedal life besides and before the Westminster Assembly (1643-52)! See btw, Robert Letham’s book here, noting pages 69-71 on the influence of the Thirty-Nine Articles (which of course followed the Irish Articles).
February 12th, 2012 at 11:09 am
*Of course the early Thirty-nine Articles developed from the Forty-two Articles by the Archbishop Thomas Cranmer in 1553.
February 12th, 2012 at 11:17 am
Again my point is how the Creedal and Anglican history gets left out often in these American Reformed debates. For the beginning of the Anglican Communion was itself a church of the via-media, or church of the middle way: both “catholic” and “reformed”.
February 12th, 2012 at 12:41 pm
I’m interested by the fact that Frame picked George Grant and Gary Demar to write the Introduction and Forward respectively? Does this strike anyone else as a little strange? I’m not in the Hart, Horton, etc W2K camp and I really like much of what Grant and Demar have written, but I wonder whether they were the right people to be Frame’s right hand men, so as to speak. The W2K philosophy is driven by particularly exegetical and systematic concerns, but Grant and Demar are not known for their gifts in these areas. So I wonder why Frame selected them to headline his book – any thoughts? Frame must realize that what Grant and Demar write will be of little interest to the supporters of W2K.
February 12th, 2012 at 2:15 pm
Personally I really enjoyed the Rev. Grant’s Intro, with both its biblicism and pastoral emphasis. But certainly hearing from Gary DeMar’s Foreword also shows the great differences in the history of the Reformed, especially the American. So I think again personally, that both of these men were a good choice, the pastoral and the more theological acute, with DeMar. We need to see and appreciate the diversity and differences of the history of the Reformed! And it is again my hope that Frame’s book will create more of this desire, in once again a tasteful and needed Reformed polemic and argumentation.
February 12th, 2012 at 2:45 pm
Fr. Robert and All,
Let me elaborate a little – Grant and Demar are known as apologists for Christendom and Christian Reconstructionism respectively. The adherents of W2K have no time for either of these philosophies. So if Frame is attempting to engage the W2K crowd why would he utilize these two gentlemen to introduce his book?
February 12th, 2012 at 3:38 pm
@Andrew: I can only guess myself? But perhaps to just contrast the differences, and what he (Frame) perhaps sees as the depth in this subject, at least among the American Reformed. Again, this would be my best guess. As I have noted, this appears to be an American Reformed reaction obviously, with also the critique of Hart’s: A Secular Faith, besides that towards Mike Horton also. Again, I myself see this as a “theological” hit from Frame! So in reality the WTS “Escondido” people are the one’s that really must make the response here. May the debate continue!
February 12th, 2012 at 6:14 pm
Rich,
Really? So, if my name is Dennis you’ll engage? DHN doesn’t work? Ok
If this is about theological issues and not personalities, it does no good to defend the WSC men any more than it does to defend Frame.
Let’s hear the WSC men respond to the specific critiques laid out in the book.
February 13th, 2012 at 5:57 am
Dr. Horton,
Specific applications of general principles helps me to understand doctrinal teaching. So with regards to Westminster Seminary West 2K doctrine, let us look to the American Revolution. There were Christian pastors and churches in the colonies who participated in the public square to wage civil disobedience against the civil magistrates in England.
Does WSW2K condemn (or express explicit disapproval of) those Christian pastors and churches who participated in the public square (and some of them may have even used the pulpits) to wage civil disobedience against the civil magistrates in England?
February 13th, 2012 at 6:57 am
DNH, my policy not to interact on blogs as a general rule with those who don’t identify themselves is nothing personal againt you. How can it be? I don’t even know you. I learned a long time ago that for me I much prefer to either know the person personally or be able to contact them.
You think the WSC men need to respond to Frame. I think they don’t. If they decide to, that’s fine with me. I can leave it at that.
February 13th, 2012 at 7:02 am
TUAD, despite what you seem to assume, 2k isn’t a monolith. But while some 2kers are more convinced of the virtues of civil disobedience, some others aren’t since the apostles seem pretty decidedly for civil obedience. And some of us in the latter camp also aren’t wild about reaching across time and place in order to pass judgment on those convinced otherwise.
February 13th, 2012 at 8:56 am
Good questions about civil disobedience. That’s not really germane to the “two kingdoms” idea, though. There were “two-kingdoms” folks who participated in peaceful protests–even sit-ins–during the civil rights movement and “one-kingdom” folks who advocated excommunicating anyone who participated. Christians may be called to defend the law above the positive laws of nations. Even churches–as church–may be called to obey God rather than the state when the latter enforces policies that would require the church to violate its calling. For example, churches one day in the US may lose their tax-exempt status if they are explicitly pro-life. That’s not persecution, since that status is not a divine right to begin with. However, if the state ever required silence on the matter where God has clearly spoken, churches would have to respectfully refuse to comply with the state.
In any case, I don’t see how “two kingdoms” determines the civil disobedience question in one direction or the other.
Michael Horton
February 13th, 2012 at 9:51 am
DNH, some on this blog and elsewhere continue to call for the WSC faculty to engage in a point-by-point refutation of Dr. Frame’s book or some form of debate. I would suggest that Dr. Horton’s post above did just that. In addition, the faculty, through Dr. Godfrey’s post on the seminary website, clarfified that no one on the faculty holds to any of the views ascribed to them by Dr. Frame’s book. It’s hard to see what is left to debate. The seminary is not going to defend views it never held and openly repudiates. Should the seminary attempt to prove a negative – that it never affirmed such beliefs? It’s word should suffice.
The point that is being missed is that Dr. Frame apparently did not follow the usual path of first reaching out to the faculty to clarify their actual views before rushing into print a condemnation of them. Nor did he attempt to describe the faculty’s views sympathetically in terms that they could recognize. Had that path been followed, perhaps a meaningful dialogue might have been possible.
February 13th, 2012 at 10:24 am
One thinks of how the FV has also been mis-handled by many of the Reformed theolog’s also. I have yet to read a balanced review and understannding of the FV, from those folks that disagree with it. But, as I have noted, the FV has also been handled poorly and theologically at times by those that support it. I fear the same perhaps here? But to get real, the Reformed history has always been hot to judge theologically. That has been both part of its strength and weakness!
February 13th, 2012 at 10:36 am
Doug Abendroth,
John Frame quotes directly and extensively in “The Escondido Theology” persons such as Dr. Horton.
Thus, I assume the “call for the WSC faculty to engage in a point-by-point refutation” is looking for an explanation of how, for instance, when John Frame quotes Dr. Horton saying “x,” and/or derives implication “y” from “x,” Dr. Horton is not in fact saying “x” or else how “x” does not entail “y”.
I’m glad that Dr. Horton has responded to the degree he has. But I think others rightly point out that this sort of general response isn’t sufficient to settle the issue for those who are confused or undecided.
I understand that Dr. Horton and others are claiming that Frame misrepresents them. This means that Frame has quoted out of context or derived implications from their words that they do not think can be legitimately derived.
But asking everyone to take them on faith in the face of Frame’s arguments looks a bit weak.
To give one example: Frame accuses Horton of a zero-sum view of divine sovereignty and human freedom. This is an absurd charge. But Frame doesn’t just make the charge, he gives something of an argument for it. The WSC faculty have basically responded “Nuh-uh, read our books”… problem is Frame quotes their books to make his case.
So Frame could easily respond that their books obviously contain inconsistent statements in that case. Their books contain statements that say “x” even though, e.g., Horton believes and now, in response to Frame, publicly states “~x”.
This is why a serious (maybe “strong” is a better word) response to Frame will require an actual, direct engagement with Frames material and their own material that Frame makes use of in the book in order to try and make his case.
Granted they probably don’t want to do this and probably won’t do this “point-by-point” for the whole book. But it would be nice to have several concrete examples concerning the more important charges that Frame levels against them.
February 13th, 2012 at 10:41 am
Fr. Robert,
Interesting. The same exact analogy with FV came to my mind here (although I am not a FVist). In some instances persons like Doug Wilson were being charged with believing “x” based on things Wilson had said/written/whatever. Wilson denied it, but no one on the other side was really saitisfied were they? So shouldn’t these same people be dissatisfied with WSC response? If a FVist “Nuh-uh” isn’t good enough, then why is WSC?
I’m caricaturing, of course, to make the point. I’m very sympathetic to Horton and would side with him over Frame in most cases (and over some people at WS Phil). But I’d like clearer and more direct dialogue to take place.
February 13th, 2012 at 10:57 am
Mr. Bowling, a point-by-point refutation is unncessary, in my view. The seminary faculty’s body of work speaks for itself. Those who have followed that work would not recognize it in the charges leveled in the book. For those unfamiliar with the seminary’s body of work, it’s readily available to any open minded person. Indeed, anyone would do better to read the faculty’s work than a caricature of it. That body of work is a standing refutation of the book’s caricature. Nor would such a debate be productive. The author of an angry screed is not looking for clarification or advancement of understanding. Finally, such a refutation would dignify the screed and imply that the critic has made a few fair points that are worthy of discussion when such is not the case. In my view, Dr. Godfrey’s polite and charitable reply said all that needs to be said.
February 13th, 2012 at 11:13 am
Doug Abendroth,
I do not think it is “necessary,” especially not in regard to every charge. But as I said, I think it would be better than the Dr. Godfrey’s reply, regardless of how charitable or polite it was.
The assumption seems to be that Dr. Horton et al are so clear in their writings (which Frame has read and quotes from) that if you just read them you’ll see that Frame is writing an “angry screed” against blatant straw-men.
This requires us to take an entirely ad hominem view of Dr. Frame and his criticisms. This strikes me as unrealistic and uncharitable.
But, nevertheless, if that is the case then providing such a “point-by-point” refutation of Dr. Frame in the manner I suggested above should be a very easy task, yes? Dr. Horton could just say, for instance, “My statement on page so-and-so cited by Frame does not imply a zero-sum view of DS because of this context on page so-and-so” or something to that effect
February 13th, 2012 at 11:23 am
Dr. Horton,
Thanks for your helpful reply. I wasn’t sure about several points, however.
“Christians may be called to defend the law above the positive laws of nations.”
Can I assume when you write “Christians … defend the law” that you mean that Christians may be called to defend God’s Law in Scripture? (FWIW, it’s just an observation of reality that there’s not a consensus among churches/Christians as to what constitutes God’s Laws in Scripture.) Also, what does “positive laws” of nations mean?
“Even churches–as church–may be called to obey God rather than the state when the latter enforces policies that would require the church to violate its calling. … However, if the state ever required silence on the matter where God has clearly spoken, churches would have to respectfully refuse to comply with the state.”
(1) There may be situations where the State does not mandate silence of a church/minister, but instead the State may institute compliance and enforcement measures that penalize a church/minister’s behavior.
(2) Again, it’s simply the observable reality that there’s disagreement among and between churches/Christians on whether God has clearly spoken on a matter. This makes things rather problematic.
“In any case, I don’t see how “two kingdoms” determines the civil disobedience question in one direction or the other.”
I’m glad to see you say that there’s a disjunction between Westminster Seminary West’s “Two Kingdoms” doctrine and civil disobedience.
A minister – as minister – and a church – as church – may indeed engage in civil disobedience whilst still being properly considered as WSW2K in both practice and doctrine.
That’s encouraging.
February 13th, 2012 at 3:23 pm
@John: You have indeed stated my point! I like both John Frame and Mike Horton as Reformed theolog’s, and don’t really see the need to choose fully between them. As I have tried to say it, we really have and need some aspect of diversity, at least somewhat in Reformed Theology. Here we have somewhat forgotten the great work of Martin Luther, as the Swiss Reformers also. And some of the new ideas and thoughts about Calvin’s theology and thinking, for example.. like Julie Canlis’s book: Calvin’s Ladder, A Spiritual Theology of Ascent And Ascension. Is very good to my mind. As too J. Todd Billings work: Calvin, Participation, and the Gift. No one is infallible, even in Reformed theology, and as Frame suggests, nor are the Reformed Creeds. Not that they are wrong, but that they are somewhat human documents. The Word and Revelation of God alone is the place of God’s “spirit and truth”. Again, if we are going to look, and indeed as we should, let us begin with the Ecumenical Councils, and then move on to the Reformed and Reformational Creeds. But then hey, I am an Anglican! And I feel that today the Reformed community could learn much again from the Anglican Communion, certainly past and in the Anglican Articles, both for example the Irish Articles 1615, as too the later and refined Thirty-Nine Articles, etc. I am happy btw to see Timothy George’s edited book: Evangelicals and Nicene Faith, Reclaiming The Apostolic Witness, 2011. Finally, if we believe the Church is really one, catholic and reformed, we certainly should see the larger picture of the historical church.
February 13th, 2012 at 5:59 pm
John Bowling,
I don’t think a more in depth response by WSC to Frame is necessary. That’s not to say it wouldn’t be helpful. Prof. Frame’s bullet points are rejected out of hand by WSC and Horton. The idea that it is their duty to defend against inaccurate assertions, point by point, seems to have it backwards, if not unreasonable. Frame is prosecuting a case, so to speak. His charges have been denied and his “framing” of the positions of WSC has been labeled as disingenuous or simply in error. If Frame believes in his case so strongly then he should at least represent WSC accurately.
When the Trent Council came down with their anathemas against the Reformed churches they accurately stated the doctrinal positions of the Reformers that were being damned. Calvin and his fellow Protestants had no quarrel with how their teachings were being represented. Thus it was a fair argument. I have become familiar with the teachings of any number of professors at WSC over the past eight years. When I read the bullet points of Frame I was taken aback… wondering, “how did Frame ever come to these conclusions?” The ball is in Frame’s court to prove his thesis points are accurate. Lastly, those who disagree, I suspect, aren’t that open to being swayed away from Frame’s stance. For those who wish to really understand the doctrinal positions of WSC there are ample books for them to read as suggested by Dr. Godfrey and Dr. Horton.
February 13th, 2012 at 6:12 pm
John is exactly right. If Frame is burning straw men, it should be a relatively easy task to refute him. Issuing a general “why, we’re shocked and saddened..” statement isn’t going to do it.
February 13th, 2012 at 6:33 pm
Sadly, I think that Frame’s book is just not going to get before the bar! This is already degenerating into a position of hardness and thus rejection, as it appears. Trent? What does Trent have to do with a Reformed in house debate!
February 13th, 2012 at 6:44 pm
The last thing I read from John Frame was his book on worship. In my opinion, he misrepresented the regulative principle and his exegesis was very thin. He has clearly read widely, but not very deeply—at least that was my impression. The book gave the theoligcal license of a respected theologian to those who want to do their own thing in worship and not apply Reformed theology to the practice of worship. Although I am saddened that Dr. Frame would think it wise to attack people who are doing so much to advance Christ’s kingdom, I am not completely surprised based on his previous method of operation in his book on worship. Hopefully, the wise theologians at Westminster will not waste their time by responding to Dr. Frame’s misrepresentations. How sad that he would make such an attack.
February 13th, 2012 at 6:59 pm
So just what is the Reformed theology in worship, and what of ‘Word & Sacrament’? Even Calvin could not crack the Reformed church in Geneva to Sunday, or Lord’s Day Eucharist!
February 13th, 2012 at 10:37 pm
Most of the responses I have read contain little substance, but a lot of emotivity. If Frame is quoting from the primary sources and not coming to the correct conclusions, it behooves the WSC profs and alum in question to answer the critique. Show us where Frame is wrong.
Anything less will be perceived as concession or arrogance.
February 14th, 2012 at 7:10 am
Isn’t it written that a false witness defiles a man?
Matthew 15: 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man:
Shouldn’t brother John Frame be addressed in this manner below?
Matthew 15:15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Obviously, brother John Frame did not follow as Jesus taught for what he had perceived as contentions or trespasses, but decided to write a book about it. In that regard, taking it public would lead to a necessity of addressing the false charges and mark those that cause unnecessary division, but Jesus did say that John Frame should be approached by those he had trespassed against in Christ’s love to correct him.
Was that done yet, Brother Michael?
February 14th, 2012 at 7:30 am
*DNH,
Sadly I agree, as we can see once again with more “emotive” statements. And we can see the reality that the early church and apostles/apostolic did “debate” and argue the faith! In fact this was normal. (Acts 15:2, etc.)
February 14th, 2012 at 7:38 am
Scott,
I believe you intended to quote from Matt 18 (rather than 15) in your second citation. Matt 18 is very important when in comes to dealing with sin between believers in a given church context. First a person should be confronted, and if he or she remains unrepentant, you are to take it before the elders, etc. But this is a public discussion / debate, rather than an issue of personal conflict. Since Frame has published his views openly, they require some kind of public response.
February 14th, 2012 at 8:40 am
Shane,
Thanks for the correction. It was indeed, Matthew 18 that I was referencing.
I did state that there was a necessity to address the false charges made public by John Frame. I was wondering if those John Frame had borne false witnesses against, had addressed him of his trespasses out of Christ’s love towards him?
I believe that instruction was given to every disciple.
Of course, if the Lord leads them not to do so: I can accept that.
Proverbs 9: 7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot. 8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. 9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
Proverbs 16: 1The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD….9A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps…20He that handleth a matter wisely shall find good: and whoso trusteth in the LORD, happy is he. …32He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.
February 14th, 2012 at 9:08 am
@Scott,
It appears you have missed Shane’s point here, this is in the open forum of theological debate, and not really a personal attack on Mike Horton, at least I did not take it that way, and I have read Frame’s book. Have you? I would however admit that Frame does press against Mike’s theological statement, and his critique is a most definite theological debate. I think since Frame taught at the WTS, he especially feels this as his responsiblity in theological disagreement. This btw, is nothing new with Reformed theolog’s, (as have been noted over the FV). Now I feel its time for the WTS “Escondido” people to man-it-up in “this” aspect of theological debate! And as I have said, we are not all going to agree here, but I hope we can all learn in this Reformed debate. Yes, surely we all come from some theological place, we cannot escape that, but we, and especially those that pastor and teach, must take the challenge. That’s the way I see it at least. And I say again, I am a most definite conservative Reformed Anglican.
Fr. Robert
February 14th, 2012 at 9:56 am
Btw, on just a personal note, for myself at least I consider this debate small potato’s to what has happened, and is even still happening in the Anglican Communion with both the liberalism, and now even the issues pressing from the Roman Catholic ‘Anglicanorum Coetibus’! Would that both Frame and Horton (the latter without doubt the best mind in the WTS!) would weigh-in here! The Church Catholic needs help, and we Anglican Reformed need help towards answering Rome right now! It has always been my prayer that the Reformational and Reformed would stand-up to Rome in our day, without the anti-Roman stuff of the past. Evangelical Anglicanism does not appear to have that voice at present, sadly.
*But forgive the aside here. The Church is under such postmodern siege today!
February 14th, 2012 at 10:09 am
“…this is in the open forum of theological debate..” ~~Fr. Robert.
It is true that I was not attacking Michael Horton, but I was addressing the teaching of Jesus in reproving Frame personally. I had agreed that because Frame wrote a book and thus made it public, that there was a necessity to address the false witness in public, however, I just wondered if having done that necessity, one may be neglecting what Jesus would have them do next: if His words is applicable to that situation at all.
“…I am a most definite conservative Reformed Anglican…”
I do not know what that means, however, I had thought that the series “New Beginnings” was WHI’s attempt about setting aside all preconceived notions and starting from scratch in putting “Amazing” back into “Grace”. I would think that would include all affiliation of denomenational teachings and her identification since we are all children of God by faith in Jesus Christ: Galatians 3:26
Since it is by continuing in His words is the requirement to be His disciples, sticking to the King James Bible would provide the meat of His words to reprove the works of darkness in the hopes we may be set free from church practises that are not represnetative of the faith in Him.
John 8: 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
I reckon it is easier said than done. May the Lord help those that seek His face to heed His words and do them.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
@Scott: I am a Irish Brit (born in Dublin), so I was raised (as a R. Catholic) reading both the KJV and the Douay-Rheims. And read my Bible I did! I had a greatgrandmother who was among the so-called PB’s, or Plymouth Brethren, so I know all about “fundamentalism”. And btw, none of us escapes some form of “denominationalism”, or religious orientation. The KJV is simply very British…’Appointed to be read in Churches’.
Also, if you don’t know what “Reformed” means, what are you doing here? The White House Inn, is a vehicle or communication of Reformed Theology. And thankfully so! And of course the song ‘Amazing Grace’ was written by an English Anglican rector, John Newton, who was certainly “Reformed” in his theology.
February 14th, 2012 at 2:47 pm
A question from a novice at this: I see one point of dispute involves Norman Shepherd; Frame seems to indicate Shepherd was essentially teaching Lordship salvation, which I agree with–when you factor in regeneration, the few accusations Ive read against Shepherd seem more dubious, although I admit I know very little on this topic. My question is really this: if Escandido are largely anti Shepherds view, what is the Escandido take (whatever that means) on Lordship salvation?
February 14th, 2012 at 3:09 pm
@Robert,
“Also, if you don’t know what “Reformed” means, what are you doing here? The White House Inn, is a vehicle or communication of Reformed Theology” ~~~ Robert
I understand what the White Horse Inn is about in part because of the book, “Putting Amazing Back into Grace”. I am not fully versed on all the reformation that has been done in White Horse Inn, but then again, I take it to mean it is a work in progress for the churches to join in on.
It is this statement below that I do not understand what that means:
“…I am a most definite conservative Reformed Anglican…” ~~~ Robert
What is “Reformed” in regards to Anglican?
Also: how reform can it be if you hold to that title of “father”?
Matthew 23:9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
I am not saying you are not Reformed, as I am sure every believer as well as every church will go through this process below:
John 15: 1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
But stating a position of conservative Reformed Anglican, is hardly definitive of what was reformed of Anglican. And no offense, but holding to that title of “father” does make me wonder how much was reformed. Of course, I need prunings just as anybody else does to bear more fruit, but I am just explaining that I do not understand your statement for what that means in how far you have progressed in your walk with Him.
February 14th, 2012 at 3:44 pm
[...] “A Response to John Frame’s The Escondido Theology“ by Michael Horton at White Horse Inn [...]
February 14th, 2012 at 5:36 pm
@Scott: First, I would suggest that you do some historical and ecclesiastical (that’s the Church) study before you jump into this blog. Your ignorance is quite apparent. The Church of England, and the Anglican Communion is indeed historically connected to the Reformation, as indeed the Anglican Communion has called itself both “catholic” and “reformed”, i.e. the church of the ‘via media’ (the middle way). You will also find out that the Anglican Communion has put forward the Thirty-Nine Articles, and also the Irish Articles 1615, which are certainly Reformed in doctrine. You can see the former in any copy of the Book of Common Prayer. It is here too that you will see in history that there were many Puritans that were Anglicans. Btw, note too that the Wesley brothers were both Anglican priests/presbyters. As too was the Anglican Calvinist George Whitefield. And as I mentioned John Newton was also Reformed and Calvinist, as again many other Anglicans in history.
As to the term of “Father”, this is somewhat the same kind of term as Shepherd or Pastor. Note St. Paul called his work and ministry toward the Corinthians as that of “Father”, in 1 Cor. 4:15. Speaking for myself, I in no way see my own ministry as that of like a Roman Catholic priest, or “Father”. Save as that of a “Shepherd” and Pastor-Teacher. And I do not have a sacerdotal authority or priesthood. Some Anglo-Catholic Anglican priests do see their ministry in some measure and regard as the Roman, but I do not. I am an Evangelical Anglican “priest-presbyter”, and Reformed in my doctrine. Though and I certainly do believe in the ministry of both ‘Word & Sacrament’, and in the “mystery” of the Holy Eucharist, the latter I see closely as did Luther.
I hope this helps you to understand a bit better.
Fr. Robert K. Darby
D. Phil., Th.D.
February 14th, 2012 at 5:47 pm
David B.: Mike Horton has written a book on Lordship, back in the 90′s as I remember? And He took John MacArthur to task too as I remember. I don’t have that copy now, however. Perhaps others can help here as to Mike’s book?
February 14th, 2012 at 6:33 pm
Mike: It is an admirable thing to correct misconceptions regarding your work but please do not create new misconceptions in the process–I know for a fact that at least one of the introductions to Frame’s book was not written by a “noted theonomist.” Indeed, he is not now nor has he ever been a theonomist–as the Westminster book you’ve referenced affirms very clearly. You might want to reread Tim Keller’s contribution.
February 14th, 2012 at 7:51 pm
David,
The book Robert is referring to is “Christ the Lord” and I highly recommend it. Although I did not rate the book highly in my Amazon review, you state that you are a “novice” and so I would highly recommend the book to you in that regard. It does a great job of laying out the two positions of Hodges and MacArthur and Horton et al’s alternative.
Not to go too far afield, but let me say a word on why I rated it low at the time: My main criticism of the book was that I found it weak in the area of exegetical argument. At the time, when I purchased the book, I was primarily interested in an exegetical defense. I stand by those criticisms (and still feel that our “camp” needs to do more exegesis and not rely so heavily on tradition, creeds, confessions, or the like), but you can read the person who commented on my review, or one of the other reviews, for a different take.
February 14th, 2012 at 8:41 pm
@Robert,
Although I do appreciate you giving a general overview of what a consevative Reformed Anglican is: I doubt that knowledge is necessary for jumping in on this blog. You still haven’t sufficiently established what was reformed.
Reformation is an ongoing pruning from the Lord as far as I am concern. To think that the church has been reformed enough as it is can only lead to a complacency that other believers and churches will follow.
I have a contention against the use of the term sacrament. It is not found in the Bible at all. However, ordinance is a term used, and it is to the scripture we should examine the use of our words and practises today in reforming them.
The importance for dropping the term is obvious: to further stand apart from the dead works of catholicism. Presbytery churches have used the term sacrament in regards to marriage, baptism, and even infant baptism and not just towards the bread and the wine. To the world at large, they would wonder what the difference is, and why Protestant had left. If you walk like a duck and quack like a duck, it is no wonder why leaders in Lutheran churches in the British Isles had stated that it was a mistake to leave the RCC.
A little leaven leavens into a whole lump. I would have to say that Luther did not finish pruning away from the RCC.
Sacrament as defined is making the bread and wine more than what Jesus intended it to be used for: which is to be done in remembrance of Him only. Eucharist goes even beyond that and defines it even more which is idolatry. I cannot see how it cannot be discerned as that. 1 Corinthians 10:14-23
Scripture confirms that one can have communion without using the terms sacrament and Eucharist: 1 Corinthians 11:23-26. Scripture also confirms that it is necessary to drop those terms as reproving the works of darkness:1 Corinthians 11:27-31 & 1 Thessalonians 5:21-24 if we are to walk in the light and in truth in having fellowship with the Son in worship: 1 John 1:5-10 & 1 Corinthians 5:4-8 .
Also: although Paul referred to himself like a father, he was not teaching any believer to call him a father. He was merely identifying himself as one that has begotten them to the Lord to follow him as an example in the Lord.
So I do wonder when churches say they have been reforming: I am trying to see the fruits that God would have them bear from all that pruning. The faith in Jesus Christ is still hard to see from under the bushel of unscriptural practises.
February 14th, 2012 at 9:21 pm
@Scott: Now you have revealed your “fundamentalism”, but this blog is not the place to get into “your” positions. I have my own blog, I would challenge your positions there if you want?
February 14th, 2012 at 10:22 pm
Thanks, John Bowling for that reference on Lordship. Unfortunately it looks out of print.
I find all of this very interesting.
February 15th, 2012 at 7:54 am
George Grant,
It has been a while. I hope you’re well. I saw nothing in your introduction that distanced you from theonomy. On the contrary, you write concerning the Great Commission, “This mandate is the essence of the New Covenant which is but an extension of the Old Covenant: Go and begin the process of reclaiming everything in heaven and on earth for His Name’s sake (Gen 1:28)” (xii).
This sounds consistent with your explicit defense of theonomy in The Changing of the Guard (Ft. Worth, TX: Dominion Press, 1987), pp. 50-51:
“Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ – to have dominion in the civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.
But it is dominion that we are after. Not just a voice.
It is dominion we are afier. Not just influence.
It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.
It is dominion we are after.
World conquest. That’s what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less….Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land – of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ. It is to reinstitute the authority of God’s Word as supreme over all judgments, over all legislation, over all declarations, constitutions, and confederations. True Christian political action seeks to rein the passions of men and curb the pattern of digression under God’s rule.”
Have I missed something?
February 15th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Dr. Horton: “It [Frame's book] is so replete with caricatures, misrepresentations, and straw opponents that a healthy debate on important issues is aborted at the outset.”
Obviously, this is the substantive critique in this review of Dr. Frame’s book. And there are many comments attesting to this as well.
With regards to Dr. Frame’s strawman burning, I recently found this post by Dr. Darryl Hart titled “The Bible is Not Off Limits But Only Settles So Much.”
A brief excerpt: “Two of Old Life’s regular voices, Zrim and Jed, are having an interesting discussion — in response to a post questioning the political machinations of the hallowed Bonhoffer — about whether 2kers may legitimately appeal to the Bible in their civic duties. Zrim argues that the Bible forbids civil disobedience while Jed questions whether a 2ker may employ the Bible in this way.”
Three observations arise:
(1) The stark contrast between
“Zrim argues that the Bible forbids civil disobedience”
and
“In any case, I don’t see how “two kingdoms” determines the civil disobedience question in one direction or the other.” (Dr. Horton)
I suppose this affirms what Zrim wrote earlier: “2k isn’t a monolith.”
(2) If 2K folks affirm 2K voices like Zrim’s (“the Bible forbids civil disobedience”) on the WSW2K spectrum , then is Dr. Frame really as guilty of building strawmen on this particular and specific issue? After all, there really is a 2K advocate forbidding civil disobedience, and thus not a strawman.
(3) (Assuming) WSW2K’ers who condone “justifiable” civil disobedience (including clergy as clergy and churches as churches) engaging with 1K’ers who repudiate theonomy and theocracy, why is there so much conflict and noise between 2K and 1K? It seems overblown and to the glee of the Enemy. Am I missing something?
February 15th, 2012 at 5:51 pm
Btw, David B. .. You might want to read the book by the Brit, Iran Hewitson: Trust and Obey, Norman Shepherd & The Justification Controversy At Westminster Theological Seminary. John Frame has written the Foreword to the book. I have it and have read it. In general Norman Shepherd is orthodox to my mind, though certainly his own man.
February 15th, 2012 at 7:26 pm
Let me recommend btw, a great book here: The Two Reformations, The Journey From The Last Days To The New World, by Heiko Oberman, edited by Donald Weinstein. Here is the last collection of the writings of Oberman, just after he died. The book includes chapters on both Luther and Calvin. A must read for scholars, and those that seek historical Reformational study.
February 15th, 2012 at 7:50 pm
TUAD, actually you were the first to bring up civil disobedience here. Granted, maybe I missed it because I don’t have the book, but where does Frame even broach it and thus build strawmen on this particular and specific issue?
But even if he is burning the straw you say he is, I too don’t see how 2k determines the civil disobedience question in one direction or the other. Though related, it seems more like a Christian liberty issue. And from there I simply remain flummoxed how clear NT imperatives to obey civil magistrates (even unjust ones) could honestly be construed to mean disobey civil magistrates.
February 15th, 2012 at 8:17 pm
Zrim,
I’m not seeing the coherence or consistency amongst various statements being made:
(1) “Zrim argues that the Bible forbids civil disobedience” (Darryl Hart)
(2) “Though related, it [civil] seems more like a Christian liberty issue.”
So if you say that civil disobedience is a Christian liberty issue, then why does Dr. Darryl Hart claim that you say that it’s forbidden?
“I too don’t see how 2k determines the civil disobedience question in one direction or the other.”
Duly noted.
February 15th, 2012 at 8:34 pm
Zrim: “And from there I simply remain flummoxed how clear NT imperatives to obey civil magistrates (even unjust ones) could honestly be construed to mean disobey civil magistrates.”
Will the following help you in not remaining flummoxed?
Dr. Horton: “Christians may be called to defend the law above the positive laws of nations. Even churches–as church–may be called to obey God rather than the state when the latter enforces policies that would require the church to violate its calling. For example, churches one day in the US may lose their tax-exempt status if they are explicitly pro-life. That’s not persecution, since that status is not a divine right to begin with. However, if the state ever required silence on the matter where God has clearly spoken, churches would have to respectfully refuse to comply with the state.“
February 15th, 2012 at 8:49 pm
Dr. Horton,
I have to admit this is rich with irony. George Grant states in the com box that he is not a theonomist. You then quote a primary source work of his, then conclude he in fact is a theonomist.
Isn’t this exactly what Frame is doing to you and your colleagues? Quoting your works and making the appropriate conclusions?
Just wondering…
February 15th, 2012 at 9:54 pm
DNH,
you wrote, I have to admit this is rich with irony. George Grant states in the com box that he is not a theonomist. You then quote a primary source work of his, then conclude he in fact is a theonomist.
Isn’t this exactly what Frame is doing to you and your colleagues? Quoting your works and making the appropriate conclusions?
Not exactly… Grant’s quotes are from his own past writings in which he affirms his enthusiastic support for theonomy! And those statements Horton compares with Grant’s current words in Frame’s book that reflect those very same views. Whereas, Frame’s chosen quotes are from works of WSC profs, which when read in context, do not support his conclusions and which the actual books and authors do not affirm, confirm, and have never supported.
Thus Dr. Horton’s question is my question , Have I missed something?
February 16th, 2012 at 4:29 am
Thanks for the Hewitson reference, Robert. It looks hard to get unfortunately for a reasonable price. The reviews on amazon are quite informative though, and if they are semi-correct it looks like a very sorry business. Lordship salvation in some form seems like the normal reformed position (taught in the old confessions mainly under repentance, regeneration brings a new heart that wants Christ as Lord, and the will
has new power to begin to choose obedience. In a nutshell, obviously much more should be said). I dont know enough about Shepherds position
to see if it can be similarly defended. Clearly there are folk at Escandido who are still going after Shepherd, which is offensive to Frame who
feels that Shepherd was horribly treated. It would be interesting to hear why these folk think its different from the Lordship issue, and not defendable using a regenerated heart argument.
But perhaps I am raising a stupid point based on
ignorance of the position.
February 16th, 2012 at 7:45 am
Many Reformed have been in the theonomist place and position to degree, I know I was back in the 90′s for a while. But I moved on, like others… Peter Leithart, etc. One thing I that I cannot sustain is the old Post-Mill, indeed postmodernity has almost eaten the Church whole! I have since the late 90′s, when I lived in Israel, moved to the Historic Pre-Mill position, more like an Irenaeus, etc., and the modern George Elton Ladd. And I fought in Gulf War 1, that was an eye opener for us British RMC’s (Royal Marine Commando’s). I don’t see humanity surviving the 21st century! “And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes will He really find faith on the earth?” (Lk. 18: 7-8) Only a remnant will have life and light! The Visible Church is fast losing the Gospel!
February 16th, 2012 at 8:53 am
Btw, I wonder sometimes how many of us pastors, especially in the historic churches are really engaged in the culture? Or are we again just part of this loss? Comfortable in our Ivory Towers? This simply cannot just be an academic exercise! Speaking for myself, I think Frame feels this! What say you Mike?
February 16th, 2012 at 9:00 am
An open inquiry into validating or falsifying the charges of committing a strawman fallacy.
If validating the charge of someone committing the strawman fallacy, then show that no one in a particular camp holds to or has written affirmatively of the allegation in question.
If falsifying the charges of someone committing the strawman fallacy, then simply show that someone in a particular camp holds to or has written affirmatively of the allegation in question.
Or is there more to it than that?
February 16th, 2012 at 9:14 am
There is much more to it than that, to my mind! This is hardly a class of logic alone, in fact we cannot separate the pastoral from the teaching authority itself, which of course is the Word of God, itself! The Church is asleep in far too many places! Where are the biblical “Watchmen”? This is one of the reasons I suggested the book by Oberman, he was no Ivory Tower historian, as a Christian!
February 16th, 2012 at 9:38 am
And again, the Eschatological actually covers the entire history of the church!
“The church is the Catholic Church of all times and places in which believers will ever be persecuted by enemies in the church’s bosom who “wish to be reckoned among the members of the church.” The true church will always be subject to persecution by banisment, imprisonment, and flight, for the moment a genuine believer confesses his faith in Christ that believer evokes the fury of all pseudo-Christians. Why does God permit this? Answer: “God wants to train and so strengthen his Churcch.” (Heiko Oberman: The Two Reformations, etc. page 162, chapter X: Calvin’s Legacy, Its Greatness and Limitations).
February 16th, 2012 at 10:17 am
Fr. Robert (Anglican): “There is much more to it than that, to my mind!” (A response to my post at 9:00 am on 2/16/2012.)
I would be greatly appreciative if you could show me what that looks like.
February 16th, 2012 at 10:37 am
“Truth U&D..”
That might take an “epiphany” mate?
Perhaps the idea of “looking” at the other position, to see if you can live with it, or in it? This is the position or approach I myself try to take on certain issues that I think are viable?
February 16th, 2012 at 10:44 am
FYI, from the WSC website:
http://ht.ly/1hqQbS
February 16th, 2012 at 10:51 am
Fr. Robert (Anglican),
Thanks for nothing.
February 16th, 2012 at 11:06 am
TU&D: It seems you were already looking for your own validation or confirmation! And open mind and dialogue is hard to find, especially here! I have seen a few, however.
February 16th, 2012 at 11:14 am
Fr. Robert (Anglican),
No, I was not looking for my own validation or confirmation. As I said, I would be greatly appreciative if you could show what you meant when you wrote “There is much more to it than that, to my mind!”
February 16th, 2012 at 11:49 am
TU&D,
Sorry mate, the blog is often hard to pick-up on the mental aspect, i.e. is this satirical? etc.
As I wrote, I don’t think we can make this an aspect of logic at this point. Whatever Frame’s motivation? We can only go to what he has written. All the rest is “smoke” to my mind! It is hard no doubt when John Frame points his theological mind and guns down range at you, but all you can do is take the challenge and answer, especially when you are yourself a “theolog”. Again, the challenge right or wrong is before the WSC!
I am myself I hope kind of in the middle, though as I have noted, I certainly have my own theological place, ‘Reformed’. And as I have stated, the WSC has put out their own guns at times, toward others (FV, etc.). Again, I think since Frame taught there, he should be given at least his place to be heard and responded to. But this again, simply must be “theological” and not personal. I read Frame’s book, and he sent his theological “rounds” toward several, so again to my mind.. the “game ia a’foot”! And the only place to answer is “theological”!
Btw, what I have seen so far is just ad hoc at best, I mean support from others, etc. I know others on the other or different side. So again this will not be solved, save on the “theological and biblical” ground! And again, even there we must choose from the best arguments, rather than “who” wrote or writes what.
February 16th, 2012 at 4:30 pm
David: I would agree, that the so-called Lordship of Christ is central in Reformed Theology, but we always must beware of legalism, both in ourselves, and in any Judaizing aspect.
February 16th, 2012 at 4:48 pm
Btw, David, I wish you could get a copy of Hewitson’s book, to my mind, Shepherd’s view is within the old school Reformed positions of Christ’s Lordship. Though, if you grab an isolated sentence of Shepherd’s statements and views, it could sound harsh or legal. But, one must read the weight of Shepherd to my mind, to see his positions.
‘Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love (11/2).’ – Westminster Assembly, Westminster Confession of Faith (Quoted on page 144 of the Hewitson book).
February 16th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
Quite apart from John Frame I’ve wondered if you’ve been heavily influenced by Lutheran theology, Michael. You emphasize the law/gospel hermeneutic in ways I don’t often hear from Reformed folk. I understand there is a precedent in the history of Reformed theology for what you’re doing, but also hear something new in the things you say (a king of return to lost emphases). What you’ve said about Frame (accusing you of Lutheran sympathies) confirms my own sense of an unusual Lutheran-like emphasis.
For what its worth, I like it. I pastor a church in the German Evangelical (union church) tradition and lean Lutheran on many things. I especially appreciate the clear distinctions you make (like Lutherans) but also like your reminder that distinctions are to be made without separation.
February 17th, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Jack,
No, no, George *said* he wasn’t a theonomist, after all.
Shame on Tom Chantry for writing that letter which was posted on WSC’s web site. Ask R. Scott Clark what he thinks of confessional Reformed Baptists.
All you guys thus far have gone ad homonem, when will we see some substance?
February 17th, 2012 at 9:00 pm
DNH,
Nice try, but no cigar…
February 18th, 2012 at 7:55 am
I must say that I too agree with DNH! And this is not based upon a preference for Frame really, but just the issues. And I am thankful too btw for Mike’s “Luther” understanding! Something I am closer to myself, rather than Frame and the Reformed in some areas. But again hey, I am an Anglican.. and we can have some elbow room, though I am myself a real conservative!
And it depend’s upon what “brand” of cigar you smoke?
February 19th, 2012 at 10:28 pm
Jack,
Did you actually read Frame’s book?
Secondly, can you cite a single example of Frame quoting anyone “out of context”?
Anxiously awaiting your reply…
February 20th, 2012 at 10:01 am
Here is a grand verse to consider in this discussion:
“But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever,
the purposes of his heart through all generations.
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,
the people he chose for his inheritance.” — Psalm 33:11–12
Surely this verse presses beyond the Jewish covenant, to our own! Note, Romans 15:8-9, etc. And there is but One Covenant of Grace!
February 20th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
Perhaps some will find this interview of John Frame and the Two Kingdoms of interest?
http://www.reformationanglicanism.blogspot.com/2012/02/are-there-two-kingdoms-secular-vs.html
February 20th, 2012 at 12:27 pm
DNH-
So then you agree that Horton hasn’t taken Grant out of context, since you didn’t reply to the contrary?
Frame’s book is not available anywhere that I can find online. Apparently the initial printing wasn’t large enough to satisfy demand. So, no I haven’t yet read it. But that isn’t necessary as some of Frame’s mischaracterizations of quotes are being addressed by their authors. And to have an informed opinion as to the accuracy of Frame’s “black and white” conclusion/bullet points one need only be familiar with the writings he critiques. And having read many of the books he deems out-of-bounds from Horton, Clark, VanDrunen, Dr. Johnson, Fesko, Hart… I think I am.
And I must agree with Dr. Godfrey. There is little to no resemblance between Frame’s bullet points and the teachings by the above authors, as affirmed by not just by those professors but even “non-reformed” students who were taught at WSC:
http://wscal.edu/blog/entry/a-letter-to-the-editor-about-john-frames-book
A number of quotes that Frame uses have been addressed already by their respective authors. Here are two:
Jason Stellman: http://www.creedcodecult.com/2012/02/mystify-mystify-me.html
One of the teachings ascribed by Frame to WSC Frame is:
God’s principles for governing society are found, not in Scripture, but in natural law.
Dr. VanDrunen addresses, even before Frame’s book was published, quotes from ?A Biblical Case For Natural Law that Frame refers to in support his bullet point… Here VanDrunen refutes the bullet point even before it was made(!):
http://wscal.edu/blog/entry/two-kingdoms-and-moral-standards
Did Frame consider the above? Did Frame contact the various WSC professors that he critiques before publishing in order to make sure he was representing their views correctly? Did he invite their clarifications before publishing. That is the normal courteous procedure to follow when about to come out with a negative critique, at least if the author was truly concerned with accuracy as well as charity.
DNH, your position seems to be Frame is right, WSC is wrong. Fine. I’m not looking to change that or win an argument. But given the lack of accuracy by Frame in stating WSC’s views, I find it is disingenuous to insist WSC now respond point by point to those inaccuracies. But, I’m agreeable to disagreeing…
cheers
February 20th, 2012 at 1:02 pm
Sadly, but surely as I have stated, this thing, (I won’t call it a debate here) has degenerated into the WSC supporters against the person of John Frame! Sad! And I have a copy of Frame’s book, and I have even read it!
This is a theological issue and disagreement, we simply MUST focus on this reality! Btw, the Reformed have always had these debate like issues. At least, from my perspective, this is a debate within belief!
‘O Lord God Almighty, the knowledge of whom is life, whom to serve, is to reign, and and unto whom we pray, we cannot know thee but in thine own Image Jesus Christ, and that by the operation of thy Spirit.’ – Theodore Beza
February 20th, 2012 at 2:45 pm
Fr. Robert: This is a theological issue and disagreement, we simply MUST focus on this reality!
Agreed. Let there be a debate. But for there to be a debate, the main participants (WSC and JF) must at least have agreement as to the positions Frame ascribes to them in the book. That is the reality as I see it.
To distill this down to WSC supporters against Frame is a caricature of that problem. Why should a WSC prof (or anyone) have to answer for a position that he rejects as his, says he doesn’t hold nor his writings teach? To say… well he should just prove those aren’t his positions so there can be a debate is to put upon him an unfair burden. Better that Frame had gotten (or would get) agreement as to what are the WSC positions held rather than just his version, then critique those. At that point a valid debate could ensue. Without that there is little to discuss.
February 20th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
“It would be of no edifying value to anyone to go into the details of John Frame’s departure from WSC. Suffice it to say that there are two sides to every story and if you’ve read The Escondido Theology, you have only heard one side whose details many of us would dispute. None of this matters in any case for the general good of the church and the Great Commission, so I will not raise it here.”
This section of your introduction is self-defeating. You should have omitted it if you were interested leaving the issue aside.
“I will not discuss my opponents past, which, as it happened, was incredibly unbecoming and not at all like he says. He was a real stinker, but we’re not talking about that. I’m above it.”
Comical.
February 20th, 2012 at 3:33 pm
@Jack Miller: Well Jack the issue is “straightway”, no matter how it got here. And we are talking about the likes of John Frame, no small-fry in the theological world of the Reformed! “Little to discuss”? Well not if your live and do your business in theology! Again, since I am an Anglican, this does not affect me at the ecclesiastical level, but it does certainly theologically. And so all Reformed people that take their theology seriously, especially those that teach and pastor, simply should engage. So if your within the WSC itself, its game on! That’s how I see it at least. I am an old military guy also, when you find yourself in the middle of an attack, your ready-up and make a counter-attack! Of course I don’t want to overpress the metaphor. But, this is just a time to take the challenge and speak the truth, at least as one may understand it. But of course this must be done in the Spirit of Christ! Again, since Frame is an old teacher from the WTS, and the WSC itself, it seems he feels he has the right, and even the responsibility to press the issue. But I cannot speak for him, just guessing? Again myself, I don’t see how the WSC people simply cannot engage!
February 20th, 2012 at 6:55 pm
Zrim: “And from there I simply remain flummoxed how clear NT imperatives to obey civil magistrates (even unjust ones) could honestly be construed to mean disobey civil magistrates.”
Will the following help you in not remaining flummoxed?
Dr. Horton: “Christians may be called to defend the law above the positive laws of nations. Even churches–as church–may be called to obey God rather than the state when the latter enforces policies that would require the church to violate its calling. For example, churches one day in the US may lose their tax-exempt status if they are explicitly pro-life. That’s not persecution, since that status is not a divine right to begin with. However, if the state ever required silence on the matter where God has clearly spoken, churches would have to respectfully refuse to comply with the state.“
TUAD, if the state compels churches to remain silent where God clearly speaks or speak where he is clearly silent, they are clearly obligated to disobey. But it’s hardly obvious that this qualifies as civil disobedience. We are compelled by Peter to obey not only good and gentle but also unjust rulers. Contrary to this, the modern doctrine of civil disobedience says that an unjust ruler not only may but should be disobeyed. The NT, in places like Romans 13:1-7 and 1 Peter 2, doesn’t actually seem to qualify the legitimacy of civil rulers the way modern political theory does. It actually puts all the onus on believers (individual and corporate) to obey them since there are no authorities except those instituted by God and to dis/obey them is to dis/obey God himself. Are we to obey God rather than men? Yes. But we are also just as obligated to obey our magistrates. I am not so naïve as to not see how these imperatives can get dicey, but it also seems pretty clear in the NT that there is just no space for civil disobedience.
But “being pro-life” is a political statement, so it’s also not clear to me why churches have to be “pro-life” in the first place. The church should actually be politically silent, because God hasn’t taken a side in the political debate. Sure, God is vocal and clear on the moral question of abortion, but he’s equally silent on the political dimension of abortion, a distinction even conservative Calvinists seem to find hard to make. So I’m not very persuaded on the hypothetical that one day churches may lose their tax-exempt status if they get explicitly pro-life. First, it seems a little manufactured. Second, there seems to be a glossing over of the moral-political distinction which leads to an unchecked implication that churches may and even should be political, but they shouldn’t be in the first place.
February 20th, 2012 at 7:07 pm
Wow! The last paragraph, I would certainly not agree with! The Church sometimes must simply enter into the political place. Silence is simply postmodern! For example the place of marriage: one man, and one woman!
February 20th, 2012 at 9:44 pm
I quite agree with Tim V. Comical
Jack, you’re spouting off without having read the book in question. A simple “I don’t believe that!” from WSC isn’t sufficient. They need to explain where and how it is that Frame misunderstood or mischaracterized their actual positions.
If they don’t, it’s either concession or arrogance.
February 20th, 2012 at 9:58 pm
Jack,
My point about George Grant was that his works were quoted, conclusions were made in light of his statements, yet he denied being a theonomist. Did his denial then lead you and others to adjust your view of his position? No. Why? Because of what he said.
Same thing with the Escondido Theology. WSC works were quoted, conclusions made in light of those works, etc. Simple denials won’t do.
February 21st, 2012 at 5:18 am
@ Fr. Robert (Anglican) concernIng Frame Audio
I listened to all but the last 5 minutes and it only affirmed my embracement of a two kingdom approach. Frame seemed to continually come up with “positives” that were supposed to contrast the Two Kingdom “negatives” and yet the 2K affirmed the very thing Frame said it did not. For someone who is only a couple of years into 2King I could not help but chuckle at the blatant misrepresentation. I found him inserting the word “separate” when 2kers would use distinct. He then says these areas have distinctions but are not separate. It was laughable except for the fact of all the energy that has gone into the book, these blogs…and hopefully not much more in responses to his miscaricatures. I was entertaining the thought of reading his book…no more entertainment needed.
February 21st, 2012 at 5:30 am
@Fr. Robert (Anglican)
Btw…the comments of flavor are not so directed to you but rather the obscenely long discourse these subject a generated. What’s funny is that after listening to the audio, I have little desire to wrestle with and engage.
February 21st, 2012 at 6:58 am
DNH, can I call you “D”?
Jack, you’re spouting off without having read the book in question.
Nice bit of “gotcha rhetoric” but hardly effective. First, you should really try to have a better bedside manner, otherwise you may end up coming off like you claim of those “WSC” people.
You’re objection above reminds me of those in politics who often claim one has no right to opine on matters of war or the military unless they have served in uniform. As if the only way to know about the issues is by joining the military.
Prof. Frames book summary/conclusions are are available online. His subject matter is the works of various professors available to all. Excerpts and reviews are available online. Rebuttals by some of those critiqued are online. Frame has expressed his views in other works over the years such as his lengthy and critical book reviews of Dr. Horton and Dr. VanDrunen (I’m sure you know which books I refer to as you’ve read them all). He has participated in an endlessly long online debate with Dr. Hart on the regulative principle of worship. In short, his views are not hidden nor only found in the new book. What seems to be new is his coming up with the novel idea that there is such a thing as an “Escondido theology” (lumping them all together into one monolithic camp) and, via his bullet points, stating what he claims are the definitive beliefs and positions of that camp. Or are you telling me that in his book, Frame comes to new positions vis-a-vis the sources above?
Regardless, I’m not critiquing Frame’s book other than to say, as I said above, his available conclusions/bullet points are more of a Picasso painting (hat-tip to Hart) than a real-life portrait of the stated doctrinal positions, i.e. distorted. That is only my opinion. Disagree as you must, but please no more, “you can’t have any informed opinion regarding the issues unless, and only if, you have read the new book.”
cheers…
February 21st, 2012 at 7:39 am
@Ryan Carlson: Thanks to listen to the audio of Frame and respond, etc. First, I will have to admit that this was not that deep in subject, and Frame was a bit slow to engage for some reason? Off night for Frame’s speaking ability? Note the moderater was the professional speaker. But I think the subject and its depth is the issue! I remember having an old snail-mail with Greg Bahnsen back in the 80′s (before he died RIP, later in 95?) and I met him in the late 80′s in S, Calif.? My little brother was an American Marine back in the 80′s. And I came out to see him in a visit. And I was attached myself at one time to the American Marine 3rd Force Recon, as a Royal Marine. He (my little brother) is now an American citizen in S. Calif. Of course Bahnsen was a theonomist. He was perhaps the bright light there. So I think that people that want to see perhaps the more original argument here, should read Bahnsen’s works.
Again, for me at least, this is an open subject and argument among the American Reformed. But people should also read the Dutch Kuyper. One thing is certain, the Church has and is being sucked dry by postmodernity, and we must stand and answer it! I am much more concerned about this, than the personalities of the American Reformed!
February 21st, 2012 at 8:36 am
@Ryan: However, I still think the “WSC” MUST answer Frame! And as DNH has said, not to do so is perhaps “concession or arrogance.”? As I said, its game on!
February 21st, 2012 at 11:57 am
I would disagree that it’s such an imperative to respond. The indicatives of what has been written are already out there…just trying to sneak in some Gospel/Law distinctive.
Example: Not that I claim to be as well read as Frame but his “framing” of the Gospel/Law doesn’t need to be clarified for the very fact that it asserts a position that Dr. Horton doesn’t hold If I were he, my response would be, “Read my book, “Intro to Covenant Theology” or listen to one of my audios on the subject.”
In the Frame audio, the speaker/Frame express that one cannot separate justification and sanctification…well neither do Horton and the like. It’s this kind of caricature that makes it silly to respond. I must admit I have very little experience with Frame’s writings, but I hope his writings are not as shallow and strawmanish as how he represents his positions in the audio. I have heard of high respect for is work prior to this book…but I must admit…he appears lame on this.
I have read some of Jason Stellman’s response, and I have a feeling that most others would be the same…the very stance that Frame articulates as the positive is for the most part agreeable to those he is critiquing for the very fact that they don’t hold to the position he is confronting…
I enjoy a good wrestling on the many questions that most in the church do not ask, but I find this one boorish for its lack a truly kinetic confrontation.
February 21st, 2012 at 12:32 pm
@Ryan: Again, one just cannot judge, until they read Frame’s book! It is just that simple! Which I have myself, and btw, Frame does critique Horton’s book: Covenant and Eschatology, as too Jason Stell- man’s: Dual Citizens, etc. I really consider it somewhat of “theological” cowardice, not to respond! But hey, that’s just me. And at 62, I have been reading Frame, plus.. for many years!
February 21st, 2012 at 1:01 pm
Some thoughts.
I do not think Dr. Frame needed to contact all (or any of) the WSC profs he critiqued prior to going into print.
I do not think the WSC profs need to respond or be labeled as cowards.
I once wrote a book critiquing others. Two years or so later a response of sorts came out. Neither of the contributors to that book contacted me. I was not offended and never thought they owed it to me to contact me first. A few years after that a book-length response to my book came out. It was over twice as long as my book. The author never contacted me prior to going into print (as far as I can remember). I do not fault him whatsoever. How can I? I have chosen not to respond. I guess I am somewhat of a theological coward.
If WSC ends up responding by publishing a book, fine. I am sure it will help some. I also have a hunch that others will then call for Dr. Frame to respond to their response. Then what?
If WSC is as bad as Dr. Frame appears to be saying, their churches will take up their departures from Reformed orthodoxy and deal with them on the ecclesiastical level.
February 21st, 2012 at 1:24 pm
Btw, it is apparent I believe now, that John Frame must be closer to some form of Theonomy? And just maybe he is right if that be the case! It would interesting to hear from DeMar, who wrote the Foreward. Again, as the Western world and culture appears to be on the brink of an economic collapse, and is certainly already drinking down postmodernity in the negative, and many of the theolog’s seem to be ‘fiddling while Rome burns’! This is not just a shot at the WCS, but the whole of theological academia today! Where are the “prophets”? I wonder how many who pastor & teach read and feel the Lamentations in the life of the Church? > “The roads to Zion mourn..” (Lam. 1:4)
February 21st, 2012 at 1:38 pm
So, Fr. Robert, WCF 31.5 is just postmodern? So the church sometimes has to get political? That seems to imply there are times to get political and times not to. So what are the rules? Does this mean there are good and bad kinds of social and political gospel?
February 21st, 2012 at 1:47 pm
[...] discussion of these things with John” and have concluded that John’s work “is so replete with caricatures, misrepresentations, and straw opponents that a healthy debate on imp…,” many others would like to know what the intended meaning is of the thousands of quotations [...]
February 21st, 2012 at 1:52 pm
[...] discussion of these things with John” and have concluded that John’s work “is so replete with caricatures, misrepresentations, and straw opponents that a healthy debate on imp…,” many others would like to know what the intended meaning is of the thousands of quotations [...]
February 21st, 2012 at 1:54 pm
@Rich: I am not seeking to call my WSC Brethren cowards really, but as a pastor and shepherd myself, the theological and academic authority does affect the visible church, and especially in the face of theological problems and attacks. And certainly this is an attack by Frame! Again, it is an ‘in-house’ problem, like the so-called FV, but no response would just be a sign of timidly at best, and perhaps a spirit of.. who cares? Just not good! But again, just my opinion once again.
February 21st, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Steve Zrimec: Yes to all three questions! The first as you press and position it! And there are often no “rules”, but the Spirit of God, Himself. But of course there is the Holy Scripture, also.
February 23rd, 2012 at 3:57 pm
Jack,
You can say what you like about Frame’s critique, but at least be open to the fact that your theological mentors just may be a bit imbalanced. I think Frame brings this out quite well, and they’re more than a bit imbalanced. But hey, we agree to disagree.
Rich,
I never mentioned cowardice. You must have read that into my comments, assuming you were aiming that barb at me. However, reading your own presuppositions into things is typical of RB exegesis
regards,
DNH
February 23rd, 2012 at 5:13 pm
DNH,
That was me that shot that round of “cowardice”, I sometimes let my old military mind and vebiage get the best of me. It was a metaphor, for let’s man-up as theological men and teachers!
February 27th, 2012 at 12:58 pm
Dr. Horton on 2/13: “In any case, I don’t see how “two kingdoms” determines the civil disobedience question in one direction or the other.”
Zrim on 2/15: “I too don’t see how 2k determines the civil disobedience question in one direction or the other.”
Zrim on 2/20: “[I]t also seems pretty clear in the NT that there is just no space for civil disobedience.”
Zrim, I’m not seeing consistency in your comments. Isn’t Escondido 2K premised, at least in part, from and upon the New Testament?
February 29th, 2012 at 9:26 am
“In any case, I don’t see how “two kingdoms” determines the civil disobedience question in one direction or the other.”
Dr Horton-
IMHO, this is an area that WSC needs to address. Many of your adherents do press the question in a particular direction. My guess is that it follows DVD but I haven’t read his works so I can’t be sure.
It is understandable that the reaction to maintaining the spirituality of church against a 1K theology, which naturally presses political activism, would be it’s opposite, pacifism. As we’ve seen in these comments, that pacifism drives the exegesis.
The problem with this solution is that it run contrary to heart of Reformed history. Being an evangelical faith, the heart of Reformed anthropology is the sanctity of the conscience. Resisting attempts to deny the sanctity of the conscience through collectivist coercion, in whatever form, is in the DNA of the Reformed. (Obviously the sanctity of the conscience is not absolute but contingent upon following the “love your neighbor” principle.)
April 1st, 2012 at 6:54 pm
[...] Horton told me about it. Or, rather, his reaction to Dr. Frame’s book told me how good the book is. I have never seen Michael Horton give such a [...]
April 28th, 2012 at 7:46 am
[...] a dustup among the Reformed again, this time John Frame vs. “Escondido” theology. Here is Michael Horton’s response …Meanderings in the NewsA satire on the death of facts by Rex W. Huppke: “A quick review [...]
May 4th, 2012 at 8:31 am
The George Grant/Mike Horton singular exchange was just priceless. I was thinking Grant was saying that Keller wasn’t Theonomic. It never would have dawned on me that he would deny the viewpoint himself as verbose as he has waxed wishing to make his views clear. George is such an attractive spokesperson that I have enjoyed his writings as much as I have enjoyed the sadly short-lived David Chilton. The creative proclamation of Reconstruction viewpoints does not disturb but entertain, until it becomes the Yankee, sort of, winner takes all, “you must not eschew the chairmans path” kind of thing that Lincoln showed us. Thanks to George and others who have clearly advocated their opinion, I know that I am not a Theonomist or a 1K. The concept clearly militates against civil liberties. Ron Paul for El Supremo!
May 4th, 2012 at 9:02 am
Funny, I saw an article the other day by a Freemason who said that the doctrine of Libertarianism was in the spirit of Freemasonry. When one looks at the men behind the American Constitution, Washington, Franklin, etc., perhaps this does have some merit? I mean Ron Paul is an American Episcopalian.
May 4th, 2012 at 9:19 pm
Father Robert, you have a light-hearted and liberal spirit which is appreciated, much like my other Reformed Anglican pastor friend Tommy Allen. I haven’t read this book and I’m not going to – there, I said it. The bullet points obviously go overboard: they say the profs don’t believe in simple things that ALL Christians believe and are designed to make one tut tut. I’m not buying. My populist take: I told a Frame backer blogger elsewhere that, no matter how orthodox he assures me he is, when HE conquers and wins the 1K for sword of the Lord and of Gideon that I am packing up my Southern Confederate self and moving to the southern hemisphere, taking my gold with me. Many did likewise in the 19th C when the then Christian Coalition of prohibitionist Puritan Yankees from Whiggish mercantilist roots began imprisoning Northerners who published against killing off 600,000 of the population to “preserve the union” (like all the member states were carved into the Mosaic stones forever). Our war between brothers was won by those that didn’t believe in the spirituality of the church but sang: I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel: “As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal; Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel, Since God is marching on” as they stole lawful property, raped women and burned down so many towns and cities (no soldiers present, just women and children IN THE HOMES BEING SET AFLAME) some of which are only left a commemorative stone in the woods. Welcome to your basic historical 1K theonomic witch hunt. We at that point reverted to a modern nation state which is an artificial man with no expiration date like those that preceded in Europe. Reconstructionists aspire to capture for Christ a tempting massive, powerful Federal government. If it was as small as the founders envisioned NOBODY would want it. Modern nations are not Republics in the old sense of representational, as they squelch the member states dissent outside of prescribed parameters (apparently including abortion of children) and arrange a central bank to pay for wars and “internal improvements” (thanks to the General Welfare clause flaw) that no body wants (such that they will put up gold for, as of old) but are constrained to make ex post facto time payments for for generations. Am I getting preachy? All this to say praise God for the profs at Westmin SoCal for their work and univocal accord. Nobody has had anything but praise for Dr Frame’s widely acclaimed mental powers. A mere carpenter in NC thinks he is wrong in a consequential way and in the Reformed world the Van Tillians hold all the cards. Dr. Kline’s son said his dad was so ideologically black-listed that he had to make special arrangements to even publish; a great added burden for any scholar. I have found in WSC a “counter-culture” think tank to encourage me and lighten my gathering concerns…..Gosh, I would be wounded if I found out I had freemason leanings; father, how may I be cleansed?
May 5th, 2012 at 9:07 am
@Todd Mahaffey: Indeed thankfully this is not one verses the other/others. I like many of the WSC people too, and of course John Frame. I like to think of this as an in-house issue, sometimes I think many of the Reformed miss too much of the eschatological reality, but hey I am a Historic-Pre-Mill, post-trib guy (Irenaeus, George Eldon Ladd, etc.) And I might as well say it, but I am pro-Israel too, and I lived and taught in Israel in the late 90′s.
One of my Irish grandfathers (the one who afer WWI), left the RCC and became an Irish Protestant, was the Freemason. He was also the black-sheep of the family (in those days), least as to religion, and he stood with the English. He also did not like the French after the war. And later I became an RMC..Royal Marine Commando (and was way back when attached to the American 3rd Force Recon, in the Nam). Now since my little brother (Irish) who was an American Marine, has become a US citizen, we have lots to chew on. But yeah I love history too! And note btw, that there was an Archbishop of Canterbury, Geffory Fisher, who coronated the Queen, that was a Freemason. Thankfully the Gospel is not the possession of any culture or people per se, but it did become Incarnate in the Jewish race, and here we see the Covenant/covenants, and the Salvation History of God, (Rom. 15:8-9).
May 5th, 2012 at 1:15 pm
@Father Robert, It is good to cop clean on our eschatological leanings and extent of attachment. Some Postmils rightly discern that Christ’s kingdom is established upon advent, add a dash of (sometimes personal depending on success in calling/cars in driveway) triumphalism and end up overrealizing the already/not yet. You know crass premil is trending right now because of econ conditions resulting overrealized down spiral conditions. With regard to mixing the 2K’s, we probably have some treaty based responsibility to the modern secular state of Israel, but nonZionist US proIsraelism should be to cut the money ties to DC causing it to be a suppliant client state (once again: pro liberty; see Dr Walter Block, a Jew amongst Catholic economic department!). The Zionist DC lobby (eg. Marxist AntiDefamLeague) mixes weirdly with the likes of jowly texas evangelical preachers and charismacostals for funding of unabashedly undeclared missiles. For Israelis (secular and religious)I understand, money accepted, evangelism no thanks; you could enlighten me I’m sure. In NY they spit on well-meaning evangelizers. My Baptist friend said you had to look out for the venom when you handed them a sandwich and in 3 yrs they had their evangelical org had no converts. You KNOW the more Jewishly Orthodox they are they are so opposed to the nonspirituality of the secular Israeli state that they are likely to stay in Manhatten or Geneva in utter religious revulsion! I wonder if the meaning of “to the Jew first” isn’t as close as the nose on our face, as in: it came to the Jew first and then moved on after the final curtain in 70AD. I haven’t heard any Reformed teachers (or anyone else but Christian Identity/British Israel) going out on this limb; I don’t know if it CAN be discerned but I have it tucked away with Jesus clear warnings to the Jews. Partial preterism at least clears the muddy waters a bit, doesn’t it? 20C liberals used the “failed” immanant prophecies of Jesus to make Jesus a moral model only (schweitzer). Can I assume that Dr Frame is as Postmil as most of the VanTillians are and therefore anticipate and IMO overrealize the work of the gospel which is said to be like leaven? Blessings
May 5th, 2012 at 1:46 pm
Per recent post I intended to recommend Dr. Kim Riddlebarger’s Amil Academy. My pastor friend says we live our eschatology and certain people, when they are experts can become overt in their “suggestions” it seems to shift the items into “confessional necessity” and anything other ideas into “a dangerous slippery slope”. A Christian friend said his pagan father told him to beware the man with only one book. I do beware even when that book is the Bible; from here we have adamant, exclusionary if not damning young-earth folks, etc. Robert, also meant to say Richard Phillips Covenantal Confusion paperhelped me immensely regarding understanding the ineffable FV, some of whose talented preaching I enjoyed as much as the Reconstructionist writings of David Chilton; preaching and writing so nice it gets you in their court as undeniable data and undeniably pastoral and well-intentioned while not betraying in every line what the hermeneutical grid is. All the Best.
May 5th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
Wonder if the Freemason meant spiritual libertine-ism while libertarianism would refer to free markets, trade, small governmental units not modern statism. I have understood FMasons to be FOGBOMs on the spirtitual side of MY bisphere kingdom house: universal Fatherhood Of God/universal Brotherhood of Man. They, come to think of it are probably 1K: another reason to say sorry Dr. Frame
Can anyone tell me why I had a bad reaction from a Christian lawyer from Illinois when I mentioned the natural law book I was enjoying? He said that’s damaging and RCC. I didn’t tell him the book was Hittenger, a RC legal scholar! But it was so right and good. These hothouses of Reformed argument are so binary and illiberal; should remember even downright evil people are not wrong about everything. I’m not sure Van Tillians believe that about pagans let alone fellow Reformed Christians once they breach the “impossibility of the contrary” barrier leading to doublemindedness and not thinking God’s thoughts after Him. Judged and decided by them of course….Whateeevver
May 10th, 2012 at 10:05 am
I wonder if Frame’s publishing ET to make sure that young reformed folks (like myself) don’t simply swallow everything that WSC says is representative of the broad stream of reformed thinking is a good project? I feel like there was so much that Frame could have gone after in Horton’s tonality toward other reformed traditions and evangelicals that he may have failed to focus on. Yet, I will suspend judgement until having completed the works of both parties.
May 10th, 2012 at 1:38 pm
Barrett, If there was one overriding characteristic I would attribute to Mike Horton’s public statements it would be “polite tone while facing taking an errant view to task”. Is there a favorite example that you have of a particularly surly moment? If you’re new to the Reformed faith then you need to know that Presuppositional Apologetics has ruled the roost since Machen hired Cornelius Van Till for his artillary like winning ways against the culture. For me this reworking of the transcendental argument in philosophy has the effect of a winner-take-all triumphalism which, surprise, has proven time and again to nurture a postmillenial progressivism and theonomy. Frame rightfully sees this, his, system systematically thwarted by nearly the entire faculty at WSC which seems to me like a wonderful extension of the Princeton theologians. Is anyone else practising Reformed natural law for instance and yet it seems the Presup school (unlike the US founders, hallelujah)abhors the idea of two tables of law and apparently ideas of general equity. NC just voted on a constitutional amend to disallow gay marriage and it was like another civil war pitting K1 over K2 and VV. Virtually neither side of the argument had much to say about state decisions having sovereignty as representative of it’s constituency. This to me is the proper tack, rather than to say, You know, as a Christian I’d like to superimpose the spiritual kingdom over the state. While the Christian Right evangelicals and Theonomists Together (they should have symposium and make a treaty: ETT) try to capture Washington and elevate all 9 Christians to SCOTUS, the issue of 50m babies aborted since ’73 could be largely wrangled to a happy closure for Christians by cutting down the improper Federal sovereignty on that matter and others. Now Scott Clark can sound less diplomatic to some – but who cares? I find him tremendously enjoyable, not to mention salient and a genuinely helpful spirit when approached. Instead of buying Frame’s “tear-down-the-house” book, read one of the WSC profs books and then go to Frame/Poythress site and download an odd hypercritical unrepresentative review for free that has been hammered out for probably each WSC effort, and you will have paid IMO about what it is worth. They need to give these away for the same reason Mr. Gary North created freebooks for his catalogue. You can see I can have a “tone” as well as I have recently watched my Northite covert theonomist pastor wreack massive ecclesiastical destruction and throw his entire session and deacon out with the help cohorts in the Presbytery. Much Joy in Christ……
September 21st, 2012 at 5:08 am
[...] wake of the book’s publication. Michael Horton, who ends up bearing the brunt of the critique, described the book as “a new low in intra-Reformed polemics.” [...]
September 22nd, 2012 at 9:03 pm
[...] wake of the book’s publication. Michael Horton, who ends up bearing the brunt of the critique, described the book as “a new low in intra-Reformed [...]
March 19th, 2013 at 11:15 pm
An hour and a half video from John Frame has just been made available:
http://whitefieldmedia.com/product/dialogues-in-theology-volume-one-escondido-theology-with-dr-john-frame
April 23rd, 2013 at 1:26 pm
[...] wake of the book’s publication. Michael Horton, who ends up bearing the brunt of the critique, described the book as “a new low in intra-Reformed [...]
May 22nd, 2013 at 8:03 am
“Nevertheless, at least in theory, he made precisely the same arguments as Luther. I wonder if those sympathetic to theonomy or making America a “Christian nation” are really serious. Do they really want the White House or the legislative or judicial branches to enforce the first table of the law?”
I think it a good idea that sanctions be applied to those who trash our Father`s name. How can a Christian politician say the Lord`s prayer , calling for God`s name to be hallowed, and then not work to have His name hallowed?
“Will orthodox Protestants be the only ones allowed to rule, or will a few Roman Catholics, Jews, and perhaps a conservative mainliner or two pass the Senate confirmation hearings? This is not to say that God’s moral law is no longer in force, that it no longer expresses God’s eternal measure of righteousness. Rather, it is to recognize that the New Testament teaches us to live as “strangers and aliens” in this present age, loving and serving our neighbors through our callings, witnessing God’s Word to them, and contributing toward the common good of a city that is important but never ultimate.”
There were a number of wicked Kings who ruled Israel. A Jew or Roman Catholic can rule , but they have to apply God`s law. The only way that we would ever have a government that honored God ( via enforcing His laws) is if the majority of the people`s hearts are changed. No matter what, someone`s idea of right and wrong is going to be legislated and”forced” in the minority,…which is what is happening today. A minority is forced to pay for abortion. Is this the kind of governance that is God honoring?
What a shame that some here have lowered the level of discource into an acidic swamp. Where is the love?
June 16th, 2013 at 10:03 pm
Something for Baptists and evangelicals to think about:
The Baptist doctrine of the “Age of Accountability” is nowhere to be found in the New Testament.
Isn’t it strange that God provided a means for the babies and toddlers of his chosen people in the Old Testament to be part of his Covenant promises but is completely silent about the issue in the New Testament?
Jesus seemed to really love the little children… but he never mentions even once, if the Baptist/evangelical view of salvation is correct, how a Christian parent can be assured that if something dreadful happens to their baby or toddler, that they will see that child again in heaven.
In the Baptist/evangelical doctrine of adult-only salvation, God leaves our babies and toddlers in spiritual limbo! A Christian parent must pray to God and beg him that little Johnnie “accepts Christ” the very minute he reaches the Age of Accountability, because if something terrible were to happen to him, he would be lost and doomed to eternal hellfire.
Do you really believe that our loving Lord and Savior would do that to Christian parents??
Dear Christian parents: bring your little children to Jesus! He wants to save them just as much as he wants to save adults! Bring your babies and toddlers to the waters of Holy Baptism and let Jesus SAVE them!
The unscriptural “Age of Accountability” is the desperate attempt to plug the “big hole” in the Baptist doctrine of adult-only Salvation/Justification:
How does Jesus save our babies and toddlers?
Gary
Luther, Baptists, and Evangelicals