Does Calvinism Make God a “Moral Monster”?
Among the caricatures of Calvinism is the widespread claim that it renders God the author of evil, suffering, sin, and even the fall of humanity itself. In his recent book, Against Calvinism, Roger Olson carefully distinguishes the official teaching of Calvinism from where he thinks it logically leads. However, there are over three dozen statements in his book about Calvinism leading by good and necessary logic to a deity who is a “moral monster,” indistinguishable from the devil.
I respond to this charge directly in my companion volume, For Calvinism. A thoughtful review of my book from an Arminian perspective came to my attention today and this question again rose to the surface. (By the way, Calvinists talk so much about predestination more because of the charges leveled repeatedly against it than because of its alleged centrality.)
If God knew that Adam and Eve were going to transgress his law, why didn’t he change the circumstances so that they would have made a different choice?
Why would God create people he knew would be condemned for their original and actual sin?
The questions multiply.
Taking on this question in a blog post is a little dangerous. For a statement of the Reformed position and its scriptural basis, I’d refer readers to For Calvinism.
However, there is one point that is worth pondering briefly: Non-Calvinist theologies are just as vulnerable on this question. Classic Arminian theology shares with Calvinism—indeed with all historic branches of Christianity—that God’s foreknowledge comprehends all future events. There is nothing that happens, nothing that you and I do, that lies outside of God’s eternal foreknowledge.
Now go back and read those questions above. Notice that they don’t refer to predestination, but to mere foreknowledge. They pose a vexing challenge not merely to Calvinists but to anyone who believes that God knows exhaustively and eternally everything that will happen. In other words, everyone who affirms God’s exhaustive foreknowledge has exactly the same problem as any Calvinist. If God knows that Adam will sin—or that you and I will sin—and could keep it from happening, but does not, and God’s knowledge is infallible, then it is just as certain as if he had predestined it. In fact, it is the same as being predestined. Then the only difference is whether it is determined without purpose or with purpose.
Roger Olson states his own view: “God is sovereign in the sense that nothing at all can ever happen that God does not allow” (100). So, if the fall happened, then God allowed it. The fall “was not a part of [God's] will except to reluctantly allow it” (99). OK, but then the fall was in some sense a part of God’s will. Calvinists acknowledge that it was not part of God’s revealed (or moral) will, but that he willingly permitted it as part of his plan. Yet Roger is looking for something in between: God “permits” it, but it is not a “willing permission” (64). Aside from the fact that any act of God in permitting something is already an act of will—a choice, my main point here is that Roger’s weaker claim is still strong enough to get him into the same hot water with the rest of us. Roger agrees that God knows everything that will happen. God even supervises everything that will happen. Nothing escapes his oversight. “I believe, as the Bible teaches and all Christians should believe, that nothing at all can happen without God’s permission” (71).
And yet, Roger rejects R. C. Sproul’s statement, “What God permits, he decrees to permit” (78). Now, what could be more obvious than the fact that when someone with the authority to do otherwise permits something contrary to his revealed will, he is deciding, choosing, decreeing to allow it? Here again, Roger’s notion of a presumably unwilling permission is an oxymoron. To permit something is to make a positive determination, even if it in no way makes the one permitting it responsible for the action. So what is the substantive difference between saying, with Roger, that “nothing at all can ever happen that God does not allow,” and with R. C. Sproul, “What God permits, he decrees to permit”?
There is indeed a trail of hyper-Calvinism on the fringes of Augustinian Christianity that turns God’s decree to permit into a decree to accomplish or bring about. There, then: God is the author of sin. Next question? That certainly solves the intellectual riddle. Or, one can untie the knot in the other direction. Some have moved beyond Arminianism into the Socinian view that God doesn’t even know the future actions of free moral agents. Known as “open theism,” this denial of God’s omniscience recognizes that Arminianism and Calvinism are unable to resolve this dilemma. They rightly see that if God foreknows everything from eternity, including our free acts, then these acts are certain to come to pass. Foreknowledge entails predestination, so they reject the classical Christian doctrine of God’s omniscience.
Hyper-Calvinists and hyper-Arminians share the same impatience with mystery. Neither position bows reverently before God’s revelation, acknowledging its clear affirmations of divine sovereignty and human responsibility without answering all of our philosophical questions. Contradictions are abhorrent to the faith, but every important docrine in Scripture is shrouded in mystery. Hyper-Calvinism and hyper-Arminianism are willing even to set Scripture against Scripture, rejecting some clear teachings in favor of others, for the sake of rational satisfaction. Yet both, in different ways, represent deadly errors—indeed, blasphemies—against the character of God.
Happily, the debate between Roger and me is not hyper-Calvinism vs. hyper-Arminianism. The real difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is whether God has a purpose when he allows sin and suffering. Again, both views affirm that nothing happens apart from God’s permission. However, Calvinism teaches that God never allows any evil that he has not already determined to work together for our good (Rom 8:28). Nothing that he allows can terminate in evil. What would we say of a deity who “reluctantly permitted” a terrible disaster or moral tragedy, without a determination to overcome that evil with good? But that takes a plan and that plan must necessarily comprehend the evil that he is to conquer.
Any view that makes God the author of sin does indeed turn the object of our worship into a moral monster. However, any deity who merely stands around reluctantly permitting horrible things for which he has no greater purpose in view, is equally reprehensible. In the one, God is sovereign but not good; in the latter, God is neither. Once you acknowledge that God foreknows a sinful act and chooses to allow it (however reluctantly) when he could have chosen not to, the only consolation is that God never would have allowed it unless he had already determined why he would permit it and how he has decided to overcome it for his glory and our good. Mercifully, Scripture does reveal that God does exactly that. Roger agrees that God “chose to allow” suffering and sin (72). The Calvinist says that God chose to allow them for a reason. It’s permitting rather than creating, but it’s permission with a purpose. Permission without purpose makes God a “moral monster” indeed.
Reformed theology has maintained consistently that Scripture teaches God’s exhaustive sovereignty and human responsibility. God does not cause evil. In fact, God does not force anyone to do anything against his or her will. And yet, nothing lies outside of the wise, loving, good, and just plan “of him who works all things after the council of his own will” (Eph 1:11). That God’s sovereignty and human responsibility are true, no serious student of Scripture can deny. How they can be true is beyond our capacity to understand. As Calvin put the matter, following Luther, any attempt to unravel the mystery of predestination and human responsibilty beyond Scripture is a “seeking outside the way.” “Better to limp along this path,” says Calvin, “than to rush with all speed outside of it.”


November 16th, 2011 at 8:14 am
Pure brilliance. Thank you.
November 16th, 2011 at 9:41 am
[...] - Does Calvinism Make God a “Moral Monster”? – White Horse Inn Blog. This entry was posted in Bible related, My thoughts, Reformed Theology by John. Bookmark the [...]
November 16th, 2011 at 9:41 am
I’ve tried to rap my head around this concept. I was raised in a hyperArmenian church. I believe it cause scripture is clear on it, and I know that God is infinitely more merciful and just than humans.
November 16th, 2011 at 9:43 am
And by the way, thank you, this gives it a fresh perspective.
November 16th, 2011 at 10:00 am
Javier,
Scripture is clear on what? Arminianism? or Calvinism? or something else?
November 16th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
One of the best short reads of 2011. This is a keeper. Thanks Michael!
November 16th, 2011 at 3:39 pm
reminded of a quote from Augustine, “In a wonderful and unutterable way that was not done without the will of God which was even done contrary to His will; because it could not have been done at all, if His will had not permitted it to be done. And yet He did not permit it unwillingly, but willingly.”
November 16th, 2011 at 4:35 pm
[...] Does Calvinism Make God a “Moral Monster”? – White Horse Inn Blog [...]
November 16th, 2011 at 6:16 pm
Thanks for linking to my review. I really did enjoy the tone of the book. I wouldn’t call myself an Arminian really. I appreciate the further thoughts about Calvinism and God as “moral monster.” Gives me more to think about. One of my concerns is that Romans 9:28 doesn’t account for all acts of evil. Why does God intentionally permit the violent rape and murder of a girl who doesn’t believe in him? Certainly not for her good. If God uses evil acts to bring about a greater good, it seems hard to get around evil being necessary for God’s will to occur, as if God needs evil to exist to bring about the greatest good. But we know God doesn’t need evil. He also doesn’t want evil. Otherwise, he wouldn’t make laws against it. So it seems human freedom accounts for why evil exists and keeps God from being responsible. He merely permits it as said above.
Thanks again for the link.
November 17th, 2011 at 6:16 am
Very well stated. . . I wrestle between these concepts and this blog puts a beautiful bridge down that enables one to see where each position leads and why. It avoids the hyper-sides extremes, without compromising the true questions each side seeks to resolve.
November 17th, 2011 at 6:24 am
This is beautifully put, I particularly like the phrase ‘permission with a purpose’. Thank you very much.
November 17th, 2011 at 6:51 am
No mention of Molinism? Molinism, supplemented with some contemporary philosophy of religion, can handle every question in this articles in a coherent and biblical way. ‘Mystery’ is fine, but we shouldn’t appeal to mystery when we don’t need to. And we don’t need to for these questions.
I’m not sure why Molinism is continually ignored in these discussions. My only guess is that it’s a little too complicated for some to understand on the first hearing. But, isn’t that to be expected in questions about foreknowledge and responsibility? Molinism can answer these questions. Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism
November 17th, 2011 at 7:11 am
Eric –
I did a little bit of work on Molina a couple of months ago and here is what I found from Richard Muller’s Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics which is a four-volume set dealing with the theology of the period just after the magisterial Reformation. So I did find some interesting things about Molina which would make him a good guy for Arminians, but not so for the Reformed. According to Muller “Whereas Suarez’ [a contemporary of Molina] thought influenced the development of Reformed theology both positively and negatively, the influence of Molina was primarily negative” (1:109).
Molina promoted something called scientia media (“middle knowledge”) which says essentially that there is a knowledge that God has where he knows all the possible outcomes, but it is up to the free choice of creatures (without the divine will) to determine which direction things will go. In Muller’s technical language, “In short, middle knowledge is a divine foreknowledge of future contingent or conditional acts or events lying outside of or prior to the divine willing” (1:418). Another way Muller put it is, “[Middle knowledge] understands God neither as simply willing a particular possible world rather than another nor as having willed a particular (actual) world, but as foreknowing and reacting to the result of a finite contingency or conditionality as prior to and apart from his willing” (1:419, emphasis added). It is a scary thing to affirm that God reacts to finite creatures because he doesn’t know precisely how things are going to be resolved. To get to the brass tacks what this doctrine of “middle knowledge” means is that this world has been given possibilities by God, but it is outside his will to determine which possibility free creatures will pursue.
Muller again, “In opposition to these views, the Reformed orthodox definition asserted the omniscience of God without qualification: ‘The divine intellect is the faculty by which God knows all things that are and are not, will be and will not be’—in greater detail, ‘the object of this knowledge is everything that can possibly be known or understood, whether it be God himself, or all other things which can be conceived in or outside of God (extra Deum)’” (1:396). The Reformed recognized, “that the notion of a certain divine foreknowledge of future conditionals is a rather unstable concept: in order for God to know the conditional conditionally, God would have to be ignorant of its resolution in actuality. In other words, the ‘if’ of the conditional would have to represent an indeterminacy and uncertainty in God himself” (1:421, emphasis added).
So you might be able to see a little bit why the early Reformed put the brakes on this line of theological understanding. However, Molina developed this doctrine, “in order to offer a solution to the problem of human free choice and divine foreknowledge, with particular attention to the problem of grace and election as posed by Calvin and other Protestant theologians of the sixteenth century… In Arminius’ hands, the idea of middle knowledge retained the direction given to it by Molina and become the philosophical underpinning of Arminius’ doctrine of predestination…” (1:418). So there is a very practical nature of this theology as Muller notes, “The problem of middle knowledge was, thus, not merely a speculative problem concerning the way in which God knows future contingents and conditionals—it was a broader theological problem concerning the underlying intention of the theory of scientia media, namely, the affirmation of a synergistic soteriology…” (1:420, emphasis added). As much as the Reformed fought against Molina, you can see why his formulations were favorable to Arminius and the Remonstrants—they needed a way to somehow give “free soteriological (salvific) choice” to creatures in a way that takes God’s determination out of the equation. Of course they don’t wrestle with the fact these creatures making this “free choice” are fallen, sinful creatures and that left up to ourselves we could never make a free choice that “chooses” Christ (e.g. 1 Cor 12:3). All of this middle knowledge Arminianism runs roughshod over many passages especially those like Ephesians 1:4-14 which speaks so beautifully about the purposes of God’s will being set from before the foundations of the world (vs. 4) and that “we have been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will… (vs. 11)—scientia media simply doesn’t fit with that passage.
One of the interesting things about Molina is that he wasn’t a Protestant, but he was a Roman Catholic, a Jesuit. So to hold Molina up as a middle position between Calvinism and Arminianism is not proper “genetically” and to follow his theology in regards to the formulations given above is scary.
November 17th, 2011 at 8:07 am
Hey Eric S.
Molinism does a decent job of answering all the questions involved, but I think it’s main weakness is that it’s almost totally non-biblical. (Not UNbiblical, but NONbiblical – in other words, the Bible simply doesn’t go there.) It depends upon a complex system of potential worlds God could have created and tries to peer into God’s pre-creation options, and none of that is addressed in Scripture. It’s simply looking outside Scripture (via philosophy) to try and make sense of things. This doesn’t mean it is necessarily wrong, but it does lessen its authority/credibility.
I’d go with Calvin, as Michael quoted above: It’s better to stick with the arguments of Scripture, even if it doesn’t remove all the mystery, than to create a complex philosophical system that answers the questions, but is nowhere to be found in Scripture.
Kyle
November 17th, 2011 at 8:12 am
I very much appreciate the effort to countenance Molinism. But there were a few misunderstandings that need to be corrected.
(1) Small point: You say, “I did a little bit of work on Molina a couple of months ago.” You read one book by a Reformed guy.
(2) Molinism has been developed since Molina. It’s not fair to Molinists to pick out certain of Molina’s views and attribute them to every Molinist; just as it would be unfair to Augustinians to attribute to them every belief of Augustine’s.
(3) Molina was a Jesuit, but his beliefs about Mary, the Eucharist, saints, etc. are irrelevant here. We’re restricting our concern to foreknowledge and responsibility. This is why it’s perfectly correct to call Molinism a ‘middle ground’ between Calvinism and Arminianism. God is sovereign. Man is responsible. Molinism shows how that’s true.
(3) Molinism is a form of Arminianism. Right. But what motivates many to be Reformed is that they want a way to make sense of God’s sovereignty as it’s explain in Scripture. Molinism does it. It shows how men are responsible, too. It doesn’t just say “It’s a mystery.” Reformed people can explain sovereignty, but they have to throw up their hands when it comes to man’s responsibility. Molinism explains both.
(4) You say, “It is a scary thing to affirm that God reacts to finite creatures because he doesn’t know precisely how things are going to be resolved.”
But he DOES know how things will be resolved! That’s the point! Molinists affirm that God has MORE knowledge than Reformed people say He has. He has middle knowledge–not simple foreknowledge only. He DOES know how things will be resolved. There’s nothing scary here.
(5) You say, “It is outside his will to determine which possibility free creatures will pursue.”
Yes! Why is this a problem? It’s logically incoherent to say that God determined that Jeff would freely do X. If God determined it, it’s ipso facto, not free! Does it scare you that God can’t determine free creatures to do this or that; that He can’t do the logically impossible? It shouldn’t. There’s other things God can’t do bc they’re logically impossible. He can’t cause himself to not exist. He can’t turn himself into a lamp. He can’t make 2+2=56. He can’t make a round square. But these are all logically impossible. So it doesn’t impugn God’s omnipotence that He can’t do them.
(6) You criticize Molinist synergism like this: “Of course they don’t wrestle with the fact these creatures making this ‘free choice’ are fallen, sinful creatures and that left up to ourselves we could never make a free choice that ‘chooses’ Christ.”
Yes they do! That’s what prevenient grace is! It’s the grace necessary to bring a fallen creature to a state in which they can exercise their free will (bc they couldn’t in their natural state).
(7) Your last misplaced criticism: “All of this middle knowledge Arminianism runs roughshod over many passages especially those like Ephesians 1:4-14 which speaks so beautifully about the purposes of God’s will being set from before the foundations of the world (vs. 4) and that ‘we have been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will…’ (vs. 11)—scientia media simply doesn’t fit with that passage.”
This makes me believe you don’t know what Molinism is, because this is one of Molinism’s strengths. Molinism is consistent with all of these passages. God sees all possible and all feasible worlds, and chooses the world he will actualize according to the counsel of his will. He did this before the foundation of the world. What doesn’t fit here?
Your criticisms rest on misunderstandings of the view in both its past and present forms. The only objection one might have to Molinism is “It’s not Reformed, and I’m reformed.” I see why that’s a complaint–you don’t like it. I CAN’T see why that’s an objection.
November 17th, 2011 at 8:23 am
Hi Kyle,
You’re right. Molinism requires some philosophy. But I’m not convinced that’s a reason to trash it. Here’s why.
Many Christians believe in a thing called the ‘Trinity’. The reason: the Bible affirms that (1) the Father is God (2) the Son is God (3) the Holy Spirit is God, and (4) there is only one God.
We had no idea how to reconcile these four propositions. So what did the church fathers do? They did some philosophy. A lot of philosophy. And now, one of the standards of Christian orthodoxy is affirmation of the Trinity–a doctrine formulated by doing philosophy.
My claim: if you’re right that reconciling the affirmations of Scripture via philosophy leads to doctrines that are certainly false (or at least dubious), then the Trinity is either false or dubious.
But do we want to say the doctrine of the Trinity is false or dubious?
November 17th, 2011 at 9:30 am
[...] Does Calvinism Make God a “Moral Monster”? Posted on November 17, 2011 by John Samson Dr. Michael Horton responds to this charge (in an article found here): [...]
November 17th, 2011 at 10:26 am
Eric, you said, “Reformed people can explain sovereignty, but they have to throw up their hands when it comes to man’s responsibility.”
Reformed theology does explain man’s responsibility. Let’s consult chapter 9 of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith:
1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
( Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19 )
2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well- pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.
( Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 3:6 )
3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )
4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
( Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23 )
5. This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only. ( Ephesians 4:13 )
November 17th, 2011 at 10:27 am
Man is responsible, but he is dead.
November 17th, 2011 at 11:45 am
Not all theological issues are definitively resolved in Scripture. Some issues require godly philosophy to search out a matter, the glory of a king (Proverbs). There is a place for mystery/antimony, but a default to this when a more biblical, coherent view is available is not necessary. Just as Arminianism is not Pelagianism, so Open Theism is not Process Thought/Socinianism. Few Calvinists/Arminians do not misunderstand or misrepresent Open Theism, a credible resolution for the sovereignty/free will debate (sovereignty is providential vs meticulous control and free will is libertarian; the future is partially open/unsettled, partially settled/closed, two motifs). Calvinism is problematic, whether hyper or not. It exalts a wrong view of power above a right view of love, relationship, freedom.
November 17th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
Sorry, I meant that scripture is clear about Predestination/Calvinism.
November 17th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
[...] Does Calvinism Make God a “Moral Monster”? – White Horse Inn Blog. [...]
November 17th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
Dr. Horton,
Two questions:
1. Have you responded anywhere to Olson’s statement in his book “Against Calvinism” that he would refuse to worship the God of Calvinism even if he could be convinced from Scripture that the Calvinist understanding was correct? Based on such an admission, it seems that his presuppositions preclude him from rationally interacting with the data…
2. You said “Any view that makes God the author of sin does indeed turn the object of our worship into a moral monster.” Does this include Dr. Gordon Clark’s view laid out in his book “God and Evil”?
Respectfully,
Jeff
November 17th, 2011 at 2:53 pm
Very thought provoking post.
As I want to be a faithful-to-Scripture Christian (and Calvinist) I have some questions I’m wrestling with and would value your input.
The use of the terms ‘permit’ and ‘allow’ are certainly passive. They convey that the original intentions come from elsewhere (human sinners, Satan, etc.) and God then allows or permits those intentions to flesh themselves out in sinful actions.
Does that align with the Biblical witness of Gods sovereignty over all things? It was the will of the Lord to crush the Son on the cross (Isa. 53:10), no doubt that will required humans to willingly sin against the Son and kill him. Those who eventually carried out the act weren’t alive when Isaiah 53 declared Gods will, so we can accept that the Lord willed it prior to anyone else. Satan himself desired the Son not take the cross option (Luke 4:5; Matt 16:23). Therefore the cross of Christ isn’t biblically a sin that God allowed or permitted but rather a plan he designed and meant to happen – a plan that inevitably had to include sin.
There are other events in the Bible that raise these questions and seem to convey that God is more involved than just ‘allow’ or ‘permit’ connote. The sinful abuse and sale of Joseph was Gods plan before the brothers ever initiated their actions (Gen. 37). The sinful desire of Israel for a king was Gods plan ever before the nation rejected the Lordship of Yahweh and wanted a ‘king like the nations’ (see Deut. 17:14-20 & 1 Sam. 8). Likewise, what do we do with Job 1:7 where it is originally the Lords idea for Satan to do his thing with Job. In addition Rev. 17:17 God puts it into the hearts of people to sin.
All this to ask – how can we be faithful to the Scriptures and acknowledge Gods sovereignty over and in all things to the point that he is more active than merely ‘allowing’ history to unfold, but of course he is not a ‘moral monster’ nor is there any evil in him? Any help in ensuring we don’t demean his providence or character would be appreciated.
Thanks.
November 17th, 2011 at 3:04 pm
Meticulous control is a problematic view of sovereignty. Providential control where God gives us significant freedom with a say so (reciprocal vs unilateral relationship) is more biblical. God can be in control without being all-controlling. An omnicompent being can micromanage without micromanaging. If a deterministic, decretal view was reality, we would not see the heinous evil we do. The life and ministry of Jesus, God with a face, demonstrates a warfare vs blueprint model of sovereignty. So, a right view of sovereignty and free will is the resolution, not clinging to a wrong Calvinistic view. One can reject Calvinism without rejecting sovereignty, humanizing God, deifying man, etc. God is transcendent and immanent, but He is not tightly controlling everything (hence prayer and evangelism and the problem of evil, etc. are better answered by non-deterministic views that do not impugn God’s character and ways). Tradition is not always truth. There are a variety of Calvinistic views, some hyper-extreme, some more moderate, but all problematic.
November 17th, 2011 at 3:33 pm
Dr. Horton,
I enjoyed your “For Calvinism” as well as Dr. Olson’s ” Against Calvinism”. As I told him, yours was more pleasing to read because of the opposite nature of the two assignments. When one reads both books together, it’s easy to see many opportunities for agreement, sometimes complete, other times partial. As I suggested to Dr. Olson, perhaps a jointly authored book clearly developing the areas of agreement would be a great blessing to all concerned.
On a related front, in his preface to “Reformed Theology”, R. Michael Allen suggests that the category ‘Calvinist’ be dropped completely. Would you consider this helpful, especially as it pertains to any discussion of common ground? In fairness, the category ’Arminian’ should then receive the same treatment. Perhaps with these unhelpful red flags out of the way, some (gasp) ecumenical advances could be made.
I appreciate that both of you bring much needed grace to a far to old dispute.
Blessings
November 17th, 2011 at 7:05 pm
William,
‘Micromanaging without micromanaging’ sounds like micromanaging to me. Please provide the biblical evidence for a ‘right view of sovereignty and free will’, as your answer lacks credible evidence.
When I read the Bible I’m reading God himself declare his meticulous control over nature to Job (Job 38-42) as a means of showing his power and transcendance. I read his meticulous care for creation (Matt. 6:25-34) as a means of comforting his people. I read his meticulous action in both heaven and earth (Dan. 4:35) as a means of declaring human purpose as nothing in comparison. I also read his meticulous ordering of his creation (Isa. 46:11) as a means of showing his ‘God-ness’ and accomplishing his purpose. Indeed, the Lord has made everything for his purpose, even the wicked (Prov. 16:4).
Prayer and evangelism and the problem of evil are therefore not answered by ‘free will’ in the Bible, but rather by God willing them for his own perfect purpose. How we can acknowledge God’s purposing of evil, without attributing evil to him is the question I need help with, because certainly there is no evil in him (Ps. 92:15).
November 18th, 2011 at 12:03 am
[...] Horton, author of the new book For Calvinism, responds to Roger Olson’s charge that Calvinism’s logical leads to God being a “moral [...]
November 18th, 2011 at 6:58 am
Great short article for such a broad topic Mr. Horton! I enjoyed it tremendously.
November 18th, 2011 at 7:29 am
“What God permits, he decrees to permit.” Hats off to R. C. Sproul. This is exactly the point.
From an Arminian perspective, could God have created a world in which the Fall did not take place? Could God have created Bill and Martha instead of Adam and Eve? Could God have placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Nod instead of the Garden of Eden? Is it possible that God could have created a world in which the people and circumstances would not have led to the Fall? If so, then God has decreed to permit the Fall by creating this world instead of another world in which the Fall would not have taken place.
November 18th, 2011 at 8:12 am
Hey Eric S.,
I would agree with most of the points you bring up, including the fact that most Reformed people are not prepared to interact with Molinism in detail (which is hardly surprising since most people in general are not prepared to interact with much in the way of metaphysics!), but I do take issue with some of what you said:
ERIC SAID:
“But he DOES know how things will be resolved! That’s the point! Molinists affirm that God has MORE knowledge than Reformed people say He has. He has middle knowledge–not simple foreknowledge only. He DOES know how things will be resolved. There’s nothing scary here.”
Agreed, that is a strength of Molinism that traditional Arminianism does not share. Where I get confused is where you say that, on Molinism, God has more knowledge than the Reformed say He has. How so? Although the language I employ to describe them is a more recent phenomenon, the Reformed have always spoken of God’s natural knowledge (his knowledge of all possible worlds) and his free knowledge (his knowledge of the world he has actualized). This covers all everything there is to know on the classical view of God. Simply because we believe the idea of a middle knowledge, his knowledge of what creatures with libertarian free-will would do in any given situation, is incoherent does not mean that we detract from God’s knowledge. Middle knowledge is metaphysically impossible and we can’t expect God to ‘know’ something like that!
I’ve yet to read a decent rebuttal to the grounding argument against Molinism but even if someone could provide one I don’t see how Molinism is in any better position to answer the problem of evil than a Calvinist considering how in some worlds some individuals go to Hell and in some worlds they do not and God decides INDEPENDENTLY of the creatures will which world he will actualize. This is simply another version of election.
ERIC SAID:
“Yes! Why is this a problem? It’s logically incoherent to say that God determined that Jeff would freely do X. If God determined it, it’s ipso facto, not free!”
I appreciate the fact that you believe in libertarian free-will but you must appreciate that as Calvinists we are quite within our rights to believe in compatibilism or semi-compatibilism. These views on freedom not only have Biblical support, since the Bible speak of both God’s ordaining all things that come to pass (Is 46:10; Eph 1:11; Rom 9:16) and man’s responsibility, but can also be held for strictly philosophical reasons such as the famous ‘luck objection’ to LFW.
ERIC SAID:
“This makes me believe you don’t know what Molinism is, because this is one of Molinism’s strengths. Molinism is consistent with all of these passages. God sees all possible and all feasible worlds, and chooses the world he will actualize according to the counsel of his will. He did this before the foundation of the world. What doesn’t fit here?”
If you mean that Molinism is consistent with God’s sovereignly determining all things (Eph 1:11) because God was able to choose the best available card from the deck of possible worlds that he was dealt than fine. But that doesn’t seem to fit with the glorious God spoken of in Eph 1, Rom 9, and all throughout Isaiah (especially when you know his luck’s not that great if we all suffer from transworld depravity!).
I would be tremendously disappointed with a God who gets disappointed and has to ask his creatures for permission but that’s just me!
God bless.
November 18th, 2011 at 10:05 am
[...] Horton responds to an Arminian who says Calvinism is a “moral [...]
November 18th, 2011 at 10:17 am
[...] Click on this link to continue reading the full blog. GA_googleAddAttr("AdOpt", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Origin", "other"); GA_googleAddAttr("theme_bg", "f9fbf9"); GA_googleAddAttr("theme_border", "bebcad"); GA_googleAddAttr("theme_text", "666666"); GA_googleAddAttr("theme_link", "5f5f5f"); GA_googleAddAttr("theme_url", "9f9f9f"); GA_googleAddAttr("LangId", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Autotag", "religion"); GA_googleAddAttr("Tag", "blogs"); GA_googleAddAttr("Tag", "calvinism"); GA_googleAddAttr("Tag", "controversy"); GA_googleAddAttr("Tag", "doctrine"); GA_googleAddAttr("Tag", "michael-horton"); GA_googleAddAttr("Tag", "open-theism"); GA_googleAddAttr("Tag", "predestination"); GA_googleAddAttr("Tag", "reformed-theology"); GA_googleAddAttr("Tag", "white-horse-inn"); GA_googleFillSlot("wpcom_sharethrough"); Share this:FacebookPrintEmailTwitterLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. This entry was posted on Friday, November 18th, 2011 at 1:17 pm and posted in blogs, Calvinism, controversy, Doctrine, Michael Horton, open theism, predestination, Reformed Theology, White Horse Inn. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. « SVRS Pastor’s Fellowship [...]
November 18th, 2011 at 10:19 am
Thanks for posting this.
-Garrett Conner
La Plata, MD
November 18th, 2011 at 10:23 am
Nick, sorry…MACROmanaging without MICROmanaging….an omnicompetent God does not need to be omnicausal (at the expense of love, relationship, creaturely say so). God can and does intervene, even coercively, but this is exceptional vs norm. It is wrong to extrapolate isolated cases of a more deterministic approach (God does determine some of the future, etc.) to it being always the case (other aspects of the future are settled by man, including heinous evil contrary to God’s will; in God’s sovereignty, He has chosen to create a non-deterministic world, but He can and does intervene as necessary, but not in an omnicausal sense).
November 18th, 2011 at 1:03 pm
When you decide to read Barnhouse’s theodic work on the Angelic Conflict and understand that the creation of humanity is not an event unto itself but it directly in response to a previous conflict with us, humanity, being a judicial response and we, humans, being evidential witness to the fact of God’s grace, you will then understand why suffering is permitted. Until then you will play Calvinist vs non-Calvinist as if this theological antagonism itself and any resolution of it will give you the deeper and foundational answers you still chase.
November 18th, 2011 at 7:12 pm
William, I see lots of opinions without any argumentation. Not only do you fail to interact with any of the texts that Nick brought up that clearly show God’s exhaustive sovereignty over every aspect of this world but you also provide no philosophical arguments.
But I shouldn’t be surprised… You’ve embraced some form of Open Theism which tells me that you are either ignorant of the Scriptures or that you could care less about them. Probably both.
November 19th, 2011 at 5:12 am
[...] Does Calvinism make God a moral monster? Mike Horton responds to a common criticism of Calvinism (HT: Justin Taylor) [...]
November 19th, 2011 at 3:22 pm
[...] inkling of suffering that penetrates our lives this side of glory. And no, none of that makes God a moral monster, but that’s another post for another [...]
November 19th, 2011 at 6:03 pm
[...] Horton’s Does Calvinism Make God a “Moral Monster”? is intriguing and important. He concludes: ny view that makes God the author of sin does indeed [...]
November 19th, 2011 at 8:36 pm
Eric S,
Molinism is an intriguing construct, but the closer I look, the less impressive it becomes. When all the facts are in it seems that it can’t deliver on its promise – that being to preserve both God’s Sovereignty and man’s libertarian free will.
First, with regard to God’s Sovereignty, it seems that God simply runs a series of infinite possibilities through His infinite mind, and picks one to actualize (create/bring into existence). But what He chooses to actualize is not what He Himself had preordained to be, but rather what He sees will be, given the specific combination of circumstances in the world He ultimately selects. He chooses from among a set of options that which most pleases Him – but again, not according to what He had previously determined would be, but according to what He sees would ultimately be in that particular world.
In other words, God Almighty takes in knowledge – not of real things, but of possible things, and the set He approves, He picks. The possible creatures in this possible world are primary actors, it seems, to as great an extent as is God himself. There is a corresponding degree of passivity on God’s part that cannot be mistaken for, or compatible with, Sovereignty – unless God’s Sovereignty is reduced to simply getting to pick the world He prefers. But this is not the biblical portrayal of God’s Sovereignty.
Furthermore, once He picks which world to actualize, that set of possibilities becomes absolute, unalterable, fixed, inflexible REALITY. Within this created world, ALL will ultimately be precisely as He previously saw that it would be. In other words, you and I MUST do precisely what we DO do. We have no existential freedom of contrary choice. It is IMPOSSIBLE for us to do otherwise than we actually do.
So, before creation we have God, not initiating, but responding to (selecting), a possible world (though He initiates the actual world from this). Then after creation (where we actually live, as opposed to the “possible world” where neither we, nor our actions, have any more real existence than do the infinite other “possible worlds” that God did not actualize), there is no true libertarian freedom for us to do anything other than what was fixed from before the creation of the world.
With reference to God’s Sovereignty, it makes a mockery of it (a poor imitation). With reference to man’s libertarian freedom, well, it just can’t deliver what it’s attempting. It doesn’t grant anything beyond what God’s Absolute (Biblical) Sovereignty allows, but actually gives far less.
For, contrary to the Molinist view, the Biblical position not only puts God in the role of the absolute and only Sovereign (1 Tim 6:15-16), but it gives Sovereign PURPOSE to ALL things, because all things have their SOURCE in God’s eternal purpose for His Creation, which He works out with all wisdom and meticulous precision. All things find their meaning in the Sovereign will of God from whence they spring – not from the mind and actions of men to which God merely responds. It is only in this view that you and I have any cause to give Him thanks in ALL things. For, if God merely selected the possible world in which He saw that we and others would do precisely what we are doing, who should receive the thanks? And if all things do not find their source in His Sovereign will and purpose, what cause, then, to praise Him for His wisdom, or to glorify Him for both kind and hard providences?
1 Timothy 6:12-16 (ESV)
12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,
14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
November 19th, 2011 at 9:36 pm
I asked God myself and I got a short still voice saying that even though God has ultimate authority over all things there are still somethings he can and cannot do.
Their is a website that explains where the word *Onipotent* (or however you spell that word)
comes from and it’s actually a *Greek* word that means authority over all things:
That is totally different then being able to make something from nothing such as the square circle I’ve always wanted God to do.
I think we will find that God doesn’t even know how the universe exactly began but he does know what to do with it for the better of all as he is more advanced then we are which some fundamentalist Christians will try to fight people who hold that view when he comes back.
They will use bible passages they were forced to view in a certain way and will be like a sinking ship.
Do you get into the dark and dingy lifeboats with a promise of a rescue or do you stay on-board the sinking ship and cling to the furniture.
I believe there is going to be A LOT of struggling when God comes down and things will NOT be peaceful right away.
It says in the bible that God will send droughts to nations during the 1,000 year peace if they do not honor him so there will be some heated battles here and there.
November 19th, 2011 at 9:39 pm
The questions to ask is this:
When Jesus does come and it doesn’t exactly fit with YOUR views of the bible that you were taught in church and/or by Mommy and Daddy will you go into the dark little lifeboats not knowing how far you have to go? or will you stay aboard the brightly lit but steadily sinking cruise ship while clinging to the furniture (old thoughts/ideals/beliefs.etc) as you go down with the ship?
I hope you do not become part of Darwin’s natural selection when it comes to letting go of your old beliefs.
November 19th, 2011 at 9:56 pm
[...] More Here GA_googleAddAttr(“AdOpt”, “1″); GA_googleAddAttr(“Origin”, “other”); GA_googleAddAttr(“LangId”, [...]
November 19th, 2011 at 11:19 pm
Kyle,
I would suggest you let the objective Word of God guide you in your theology, rather than some subjective voice. How can someone even respond to what you think you heard? Must we just submit to it as the latest revelation from God regarding these things? Or do we have some responsibility to search these things out in God’s Word? What if someone’s “voice” contradicts yours? How will we know who to believe? You may be convinced that you are right. Okay, but what does the Bible say? It must be our final authority.
For example, you say, “I think we will find that God doesn’t even know how the universe exactly began…” Where do you get this idea? The Bible directly and repeatedly contradicts this. Who should I believe? Who should you believe?
If I’m convinced of something from certain Scriptures, does that mean that I was “forced to view [them] in a certain way”? When you say, “It says in the bible that God will send droughts to nations during the 1,000 year peace if they do not honor him…” why do you believe this? Were you “forced” to view the Bible in this way?
You ask this final question,
“When Jesus does come and it doesn’t exactly fit with YOUR views of the bible that you were taught in church and/or by Mommy and Daddy will you go into the dark little lifeboats not knowing how far you have to go? or will you stay aboard the brightly lit but steadily sinking cruise ship while clinging to the furniture (old thoughts/ideals/beliefs.etc) as you go down with the ship?”
You almost sound as though you have contempt for the church and for parents training their children in the things of God. You also sound as though you have great confidence that your own understanding is both quite uncommon among Bible-believing Christians and yet unquestionably correct. Might it be that your “light” is really darkness? Or is it only the rest who are in danger of being deceived?
Why do you think that when Jesus comes back any of us will have opportunity then to choose between ships or boats, dark or light, sinking or floating, or to do anything other than face His perfect judgment according to His Word?
It is to the light that He calls us now. The light is the Lord Himself. We live in a world that loves darkness and is full of deception. When He comes He will banish darkness and all sin. By His grace, between here and there I will stay on the path lighted by the all sufficient Word of God. I am confident it will not mislead me. You too should rest in it.
November 20th, 2011 at 7:41 am
[...] Does Calvinism Make God a “Moral Monster”? – White Horse Inn Blog. [...]
November 20th, 2011 at 9:15 pm
Horton states, “…those questions above. Notice that they don’t refer to predestination, but to mere foreknowledge. They pose a vexing challenge not merely to Calvinists but to anyone who believes that God knows exhaustively and eternally everything that will happen. In other words, everyone who affirms God’s exhaustive foreknowledge has exactly the same problem as any Calvinist.”
It doesn’t seem like Arminianism has the same “vexing challenge” as Calvinism mainly because Calvinism, unless I am mistaken, does not define “foreknowledge” as “mere foreknowledge,” but attributes an elective significance to the term.
For example, we read such statements as, “…the word ‘foreknew’ does not merely mean to know future actions beforehand. It has a much more precise meaning. The word “foreknew” (Greek: proginosko) in Romans 8:29 is a verb rather than a noun. It is an action word, and as the text informs us, it is something done by God. What exactly does God do then? The text says “those whom He foreknew…” And, quoting James White, “When Paul says, ‘those whom He foreknew’ Paul is speaking about an action on God’s part…”
See: http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/11/the_question_of_gods_foreknowl.php
Foreknowledge, in Calvinism, emphasizes “selection”, which makes it indistinguishable from the word the meaning of “election” when it’s meaning is merely prescience; to know beforehand, without any confusion regarding the divine act of choosing, seems to me to be the right and Biblical definition of foreknowledge.
Therefore, it is the Calvinist who have the “vexing problem”; not the Arminian:
“If God is said to elect those who, having been freed from their bondage to sin, believe savingly in Jesus Christ, is that not a reversal of the biblical data? Is that not a person electing God rather than God electing a person? The problem with such a question is its presupposition that God unconditionally elects some unto salvation and others unto reprobation. The question is invalid. Arminius writes, concerning ‘the salvation of these particular persons, and the damnation of those: This rests or depends on the prescience and foresight of God, by which He foreknew, from all eternity what men would, through such administration, believe by the aid of preventing or preceding grace, and would persevere by the aid of subsequent or following grace; and who would not believe and persevere.’
God is still the One choosing or electing to save; He has just done so according to one particular condition: faith in Jesus Christ. Since election is directly tied to salvation, and since God has not decreed to unconditionally save anyone, neither has He unconditionally elected anyone unto salvation. The apostle Paul affirms as much: “For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe” (1 Cor. 1:21 NIV). God has elected to save those who believe.”
http://evangelicalarminians.org/birch.Arminius-vs-Calvin/Unconditional-Election
November 21st, 2011 at 2:25 am
Dr. Horton,
Thank you for writing the book and for your extra comments here. I am a Classical (I would like to say reformed although I know you would cringe at that) Arminian follower of Christ. I just want to say that I am thankful for your depiction of Calvinism for everyone who works under that interpretation. I am only on chapter three of your book, but I most appreciate the way you stress that God’s predestination of some to election is different from the way he reprobates others to hell — that the “lump” is lost rather than neutral. I graduated from college a year ago, and I am fairly certain most of my friends, most of them Calvinists, actually have mroe of a neutral “lump” supralapsarian view in mind although their thoughts seem inconsistent on other issues. Would it be correct to call your view infralapsarian? Anyways, thanks.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:21 am
Oh, to actually add to the article from a Classical Arminian perspective, I view God’s decision to permit sin in the same way you do. I would not, however, call it fore-ordination. I agree that a decision to allow sin is still a firm decision for the sin to occur with all certainty. But, I would describe God’s decision to allow sin as actually referring to His decision to create knowing the creation would rebel and knowing every sin that follows. So, it’s true, as you say, that the Arminian system doesn’t “rescue” God from a decision to know sin would happen and give it the go-ahead in light of his wiser purposes. I would add that true Classical Arminianism doesn’t just talk of foreknowledge, but also predestination in most things that occur. My view of God, and I believe what is accurately understood as Classical Arminianism, affirms the way you speak of God’s providence in relationship to evil. The only difference, I think that I can see, is that in my view God lovingly decided to create and give us the choice to obey or rebel (which we all rebelled), thus giving permission to all sins that God’s good and wise counsel would allow to come to pass. Thank God that, as you say in your book, he gives us all grace so that we are not as bad as we can be although we are extensively bad!
My view of predestination as an Arminian is that God foreknew nothing good in any fallen person because there is no good of ourselves, but God foreknew the response of each person to his prevenient grace that draws and convicts the world. Hence, the Arminian/Calvinism debate as you have put it correctly is about election rather than providence. However, you know where our complaint goes from here–Why would God create a big lump knowing they would rebel and only give some of them salvation? I think your book answers this well so that I can respect the Calvinist view (I think the infralapsarian one which is more persuasive to me) that says we can’t look into this because scripture doesn’t give us the details. I’ll stop going on, but thank you for the interaction and reframing of Calvinism in history against a lot of popular omni-causal hyper-Calvinists that really cannot escape the charges of harming God’s reputation.
November 21st, 2011 at 4:47 am
One problem that I have always seen in Arminian free will and or prevenient grace is the moral vindictiveness of a God who based on foreknowledge would let people be born who He knew in advance would not of their free will choose grace. In that scenario vindictiveness is visible. Reformed theology of “mercy” and “justice,” is not vindictive, it is fair based on the Holiness of God. I also have found it absurd that if “free will” really existed why we would pray for God to coerce someone’s free will to accept His grace.
November 21st, 2011 at 7:52 am
I’m not sure you have understood the Arminian position. As Horton points out, there are hyper-Arminians for whom free will is such a big deal that it seems they wouldn’t be ok with God changing hearts. First, your observation of a “problem” with prevenient grace and Arminian free will comes from a lack of understanding the actual Arminian position and I’m guessing a Calvinist’s misrepresentation of that theology rather than from someone who actually holds to an Arminian position like that of Arminius and his immediate followers like Simon Episcopius. In fact, the problem you raised can only be charged against Calvinism properly understood. For, in Calvinism, God makes all people knowing that none will choose him and only chooses some to save. Pelagians (And I think Dr. Olson has made several good points in his writings that much of American folk religion follows this line of thought rather than Calvin or Arminius) lose TD and say that people will choose God. Arminianism on the other hand affirms that God made all people knowing that none would choose him of their own volition yet he pursues all, drawing and convicting all in such a way that people can receive or reject his grace. Thus, those whom God foreknew he also predestined. The election is not based on foreseen faith only in the individual’s natural depraved state but in the individual’s response to gracious provocation by the Holy Spirit. So, only in Calvinism does God actually create people with full knowledge of what they will do and no plan to save them and let them go there own way (granted, they deserve it because God didn’t cause there rebellion in Infralapsarian Calvinism).
I know many here will disagree with Arminian theology; that’s not the point. The point is disagreements should be based on the other’s actual view rather than a caricature. No doubt you can find some Joe to criticize for excessive emphasis on free will (And, I think Arminianism has more of these because it isn’t institutionalized like Calvinism), but please try to at least understand what Arminius said himself. Classical Arminianism and Infralapsarian Calvinism has a lot more in common than people usually expect although there are important differences to be sure.
Also, we feel no tension in asking God to change someone. We just don’t believe it is done irresistibly.
November 21st, 2011 at 10:19 am
[...] –Is God a moral monster? Good theological tidbit here. [...]
November 21st, 2011 at 4:13 pm
As I understand Calvinism (Reformed)theology. God did not make Adam and Eve with a sin nature. In fact Adam is the only person who was born with true free will. All he knew was what he saw (paradise, Eden), and what God told him as they walked in the cool of the day. God did present him with a negative, (do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of gooe and evil) but in no way did he incline Adam in one way or the other, but from a true free will choice Adam chose to not believe God and from that we got to where we are now.May ysfund
November 21st, 2011 at 7:43 pm
I agree with your assessment of what happened at the fall and the effects from it. Both Classical Arminianism and Calvinism affirm Adam and Eve’s free will choice to rebel against God and their sin corrupting our nature from there onward. However, if you read Horton’s book, you will discover that many in the Calvinist camp would claim we have free will, we simply always use it for our own, sinful designs rather than to please God. Classical Arminianism also agrees at this point. Only by God’s grace can we do good because our nature is depraved; common grace allows all people do some good though not meritorious; prevenient grace describes God’s provocation of all people toward himself; irresistible grace describes God’s provocation of only some to himself and that grace will absolutely overcome their depraved nature. The difference, again, is not in understanding providence but election.
Thus, since both Calvinism and Arminianism affirm a freewill fall and the following bondage to sin, the question to Calvinists becomes, “Why would God decide/decree that it is better to create a lump that would freely rebel against him and only, then, decide to save some of them?” This question is where Calvinists are right to say we can’t know that knowledge in order to affirm God’s right to govern as he chooses. The Calvinist escapes the question by affirming that creatures rebelled against God by their own will and how this is concurrent with God’s will is indiscernible. Arminianism, on the other hand, says God decided to create humans in his own image knowing that they would rebel, decided to unconditionally save some from every group (knowing that some from every group would believe following his work) and conditionally save individuals based on belief in Jesus Christ having been enabled to believe by the prevenient convicting work of the Holy Spirit. Thus, your proposed problem does not exist for Arminians although we do have our own set of mysteries such as, “why would God decide to create all these people at all knowing that they would rebel and continue to spurn his grace?” Here, we must say that this knowledge is to high and this is his sovereign, holy right just as the Calvinist has done. We just believe our system (which I think properly understood can be understood as reformed in the sense that we argue it affirms the five solas as well as the affirmation of an all powerful, all knowing God who is actively running the universe according to the counsel of his will) upholds God’s justice and better synthesizes the scriptural witness. Thus, the Arminian system takes the scriptural condition of faith in Christ for salvation and God’s foreknowledge in election as warrant for explaining concurrently God’s sovereign governance with man’s responsibility. Again, my point is not to convince you that you are wrong; rather, this is to demonstrate what I actually think from an Arminian perspective.
Anyways, if you haven’t read Horton’s book, you should read it. If I wasn’t an Arminian, I believe I would be the form of Calvinism he describes. As I said before, although I defer to the Arminian understanding, which is synergistic, Horton has done a fantastic job at highlighting the many confessions where Calvinists, who are monergists, have distinguished election to salvation from reprobation. I simply have a hard time understanding how these confessions actually affirm monergism since they speak of God not doing damage to the freewill of contingent beings. Of course, that is the mystery for you Calvinists. (I truly mean that last sentence in a respectful way in an attitude of admiration for where you hold mystery as opposed to sarcasm which I can be prone to.)
November 21st, 2011 at 9:23 pm
Nelson said:
‘Foreknowledge, in Calvinism, emphasizes “selection”, which makes it indistinguishable from the word the meaning of “election” when it’s meaning is merely prescience; to know beforehand, without any confusion regarding the divine act of choosing, seems to me to be the right and Biblical definition of foreknowledge.’
Calvinists (in agreement with Scripture) *do* make a distinction between foreknowledge and election. ‘Knowing’, in our English Bibles, can mean anything from understanding a true proposition to sleeping with your spouse (Gen 4:1). The kind of ‘knowing’ that is in view here is God’s loving his people. He ‘foreloved’ them. This is standard Calvinist argumentation and if you don’t believe me you can take a look in any Calvinist commentary or Systematic Theology. The fact that you don’t know this is proof that you have not engaged with Calvinist material on this issue.
I fail to see how it can mean simply prescience (unless we are universalists) in light of Rom 8:29, 30: ‘For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.’
Notice the chain between those he foreknew to those he glorified such that if God foreknows you then you *will* be glorified. But if we construe foreknowledge as prescience then what does this mean? It means that everyone is saved. But unless you’re getting your theology from that master of biblical studies, that master theologian, the most honourable and eminent Rob Bell you will find this a bit hard to believe!
Not to mention all those problems that crop up when you affirm simple foreknowledge. It’s really hard to believe that God wants everyone to be saved when he infallibly knew exactly who would go to Hell. But don’t you worry your little head about that because you just showed us how no one is going to that awful place!
November 22nd, 2011 at 4:34 am
Calvinists need to explain how “permission” fits within determinism. This point is ignored, and yet it was fundamental to the argumentation. How is God “restraining” what He “scripted”? If each thought, from eternity to eternity, is formatted by a divine decree (i.e. no rogue, unscripted or independent thoughts ever, since God is “sovereign” over thought in the way that He is sovereign over action, and in the way that C’s define true sovereignty), what exactly, then, is God permitting and restraining? No one betrays Determinism quite like a Determinist. Second, in direct contradiction to Horton, if God infallibly knows that Adam will sin, and could have kept him from doing so, and does not, but allows (in the unscripted sense) the exercise of Adam’s own free-will choice anyway, then while, yes, it may be said to be just as *certain* as if he had predestined it, no, the A-God is not just as *horrible* as the C-God, since: a) the A-God is not sock-puppeting Adam’s choices, and b) although the A-God could have changed the circumstances, the A-God is nevertheless allowing a person to exercise both the freedom of their own choices and the consequences (good or bad) of their choices. That’s the real sense of a relationship which the Stepford wives of the C-God could never enjoy. I’m not going to read Horton’s book because based upon what he’s already said in the Blog, why should I trust that he has a developed understanding of what he’s talking about?, and yet my library is full of C books of others.
November 22nd, 2011 at 8:20 am
Kyle writes, “My view of predestination as an Arminian is that God foreknew nothing good in any fallen person because there is no good of ourselves, but God foreknew the response of each person to his prevenient grace that draws and convicts the world.”
If God foreknows that there is nothing good in fallen people, then how can people who know nothing about what is good choose good? In their not good nature they will choose that which is not good. That is only logical. That is how Jonathan Edwards defined free will. Man’s will is free but man is morally incapable in his not good state. That means God foreknew that no one would choose Him and so God must by definition move on the not good nature to open the not good nature to that which is good, and Jesus has tol us that only God is good. Your statement is a proof statement for the Reformed view.
November 22nd, 2011 at 8:27 am
Richard,
As to your first point, you can check out Paul Helm’s ‘The Doctrine of Providence’ in the Contours of Christian Theology series for Calvinist renderings on ‘permission’ language.
‘Second, in direct contradiction to Horton, if God infallibly knows that Adam will sin, and could have kept him from doing so, and does not, but allows (in the unscripted sense) the exercise of Adam’s own free-will choice anyway, then while, yes, it may be said to be just as *certain* as if he had predestined it, no, the A-God is not just as *horrible* as the C-God, since: a) the A-God is not sock-puppeting Adam’s choices, and b) although the A-God could have changed the circumstances, the A-God is nevertheless allowing a person to exercise both the freedom of their own choices and the consequences (good or bad) of their choices. That’s the real sense of a relationship which the Stepford wives of the C-God could never enjoy.’
So instead of ordaining that the fall will occur, the A-God infallibly foreknows that his creatures will fall if he creates them and, not only that, he infallibly foreknows who will believe and who will not believe and go to Hell… and yet he presses the start button anyway!
Try that out on an atheist some time.
November 23rd, 2011 at 12:28 am
Eric S. or William,
I am a relatively new Christian and have never heard of Molinism before, thank you for bringing it up. I admit that I have not read the postings in there entirety as after a while I found myself staring out the window considering things. So forgive me if this question has already been posted. In your current understanding of Molinism who would you say is the “first mover” and why?
November 23rd, 2011 at 9:31 am
Dennis,
That you think what I’ve said proves Calvinism is proof that you don’t understand prevenient grace or the Arminian position. As I have already laid out, prevenient grace is the what we Arminians label God’s drawing and convicting work through his Spirit. In other words, strictly speaking, God does NOT merely foreknow faith in individuals but he DOES foreknow faith in individuals preceded by God’s own enabling grace that allows us to respond to him. Thus, the point made earlier is that Calvinist criticism at this point fails in my view because in the Arminian system TD is solved by prevenient grace rather than irresistible grace as in the Calvinist system. I recommend Roger Olson’s Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities if you would like to learn more. Or at least, you could wikipedia it. Thank you for somewhat recognizing that my views are consistent with a reformed view as I have also briefly argued for above (although I’m sure that’s not what you were going for).
David,
I’m not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that Nelson thinks all people will be saved from his statement above. You may need to read it again. After reading his comments, I agree with most of them. I don’t think either of us would say that the foreknowledge referred to in Romans 8 refers to anyone except those who would believe following God’s work as well as ending in his work. So, we would say it is simple pre-science of those who would believe. Your comments only demonstrate a serious misunderstanding that you would accuse him of universalism or logic running close to it.
Also, your proposed problems in your first comment to Nelson of simple foreknowledge has no support and assumes that we have some shared idea of these problems. I’m assuming from your next comment about “God going ahead and pushing the button” hints at something you think is a problem. As I said earlier in this blog string, this “problem,” as you say, is where we Arminians have to say he has the right to create or not create and choose whatever means by which he will save any. Most Arminian scholars, as well as some Calvinists, have suggested that this necessary for truly requitted love and real relationship. Though I think there are merits to this argument, I think it is satisfying to appeal to God’s divine wisdom and rights at this point where the creatures have freely rebelled and God also actively seeks to save them. I think anyone can see how people might be unsure as to whether they would rather have determined bliss forever or bliss, but that is not our choice to make. However, Calvinism gives us no answers on this point. Instead, Calvinism at worst (omnicausals) would say that some are determined for depravity and eternal torment and some for depravity and salvation to eternal bliss. I have explained my view to several people who don’t believe in God. I dare you to try justifying your ideas about God before people whose sole authority is reason, especially if your an omni-causal prone Calvinist. Perhaps, your remark about atheists was meant more for rhetorical force, but I think it’s worth thinking over for both of us.
Anyways, the basic argument again from me is that these criticisms only come from either Calvinist charicatures of Arminianism, from within the Calvinist paradigm only, or simply ignoring the Arminian parts of the equation in soteriology.
November 23rd, 2011 at 12:51 pm
Kari: William Lane Craig is the prominent modern proponent of Molinism. I embrace Open Theism as the more biblical, coherent view. I imagine all views of providence see God as the first mover. The problem is to see Him as the Unmoved Mover of pagan philosophy instead of the Most Moved Mover (Open Theist Clark Pinnock book title) of the Bible. Molinism is confusing and convoluted, problematic and overly philosophical in my opinion (counterfactuals of freedom, middle knowledge, etc.). http://www.opentheism.info
November 23rd, 2011 at 1:08 pm
In the January / February 1992 issue of Modern Reformation we highlighted a discussion between Dr. Horton and Clark Pinnock on Open Theism: Read the discussion here
Here are some more resources from the pages of Modern Reformation:
Does God Know the Future?: A Closer Look at the Contemporary Evangelical Debate by William C. Davis
Is the New News Good News?: Shifting Views Concerning God in Our Day by Michael Horton
A Vulnerable God Apart from Christ?: Open Theism’s Challenge to the Classical Doctrine of God by Michael Horton
Openness Model of God: Interview with Professor Clark H. Pinnock
November 23rd, 2011 at 2:45 pm
[...] been posting on their blogs about the new books, and both have been defending certain assertions. In one of Horton’s posts he points out (fairly in my opinion) that objections to predestination are mainly about foreknowledge. He goes on [...]
November 23rd, 2011 at 3:54 pm
Hey Kyle Carney,
Carney said: “I’m not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that Nelson thinks all people will be saved from his statement above. You may need to read it again. After reading his comments, I agree with most of them. I don’t think either of us would say that the foreknowledge referred to in Romans 8 refers to anyone except those who would believe following God’s work as well as ending in his work. So, we would say it is simple pre-science of those who would believe. Your comments only demonstrate a serious misunderstanding that you would accuse him of universalism or logic running close to it.”
(1) I have argued that his understanding of Romans 8 leads to universalism but this is a separate question from whether or not Nelson is **actually** a universalist. As it stands, I don’t believe that Nelson really is a universalist.
(2) You can say that Romans 8 is referring to prescience of those who would believe but that’s not what the text says. It says ‘those whom he foreknew’ implying ‘all those whom he foreknew’. Much the same way that if I were to refer to ‘those whom I work with’ it would be ridiculous to say that I am referring to a certain class of people that I work with, such as ‘those men whom I work with’, to the exclusion of all other classes, such as the women whom I work with. If Romans 8 is referring to prescience it means all people that God foreknows (which is everybody on this view) will be glorified and universalism is true. But universalism is false therefore reading ‘foreknew’ as prescience is false.
Carney said: ‘Also, your proposed problems in your first comment to Nelson of simple foreknowledge has no support and assumes that we have some shared idea of these problems.’
If you’re referring to my comments regarding the Calvinist reading of ‘foreknew’ in Romans 8 then you’re way off. I invite you to consult any Calvinist Systematic Theology, any number of commentaries on Romans, or, if you’re worried about Calvinist bias, any Greek lexicon.
Carney said ‘I’m assuming from your next comment about “God going ahead and pushing the button” hints at something you think is a problem. As I said earlier in this blog string, this “problem,” as you say, is where we Arminians have to say he has the right to create or not create and choose whatever means by which he will save any. Most Arminian scholars, as well as some Calvinists, have suggested that this necessary for truly requitted love and real relationship. Though I think there are merits to this argument, I think it is satisfying to appeal to God’s divine wisdom and rights at this point where the creatures have freely rebelled and God also actively seeks to save them. I think anyone can see how people might be unsure as to whether they would rather have determined bliss forever or bliss, but that is not our choice to make. However, Calvinism gives us no answers on this point. Instead, Calvinism at worst (omnicausals) would say that some are determined for depravity and eternal torment and some for depravity and salvation to eternal bliss. I have explained my view to several people who don’t believe in God. I dare you to try justifying your ideas about God before people whose sole authority is reason, especially if your an omni-causal prone Calvinist. Perhaps, your remark about atheists was meant more for rhetorical force, but I think it’s worth thinking over for both of us.’
(1) If Arminians can appeal to God’s right to create regardless of what he infallibly foreknows will happen then Calvinists can appeal to this same right to justify his foreordination. So if the Calvinist God can be called a moral monster then so can the Arminian God.
(2) When you said, ‘Most Arminian scholars, as well as some Calvinists, have suggested that this necessary for truly requitted love and real relationship’ I’m not sure what ‘this’ is. I think that you’re referring to libertarian free-will (LFW from now on) but I could be wrong. If you are then (i) no Calvinist believes this, (ii) you’d have to make an argument for why LFW is necessary for love and real relationship, and (iii) the doctrine of ‘simple foreknowledge’ leads to determinism which is incompatible with LFW.
(3) Referring to the Calvinist God as ‘omni-causal’ is ambiguous. What do you mean by ‘omni-causal’? Most Calvinists do not support the doctrine of occasionalism (that God is the only causal entity) which is what it sounds like you have in mind.
(4) As I said earlier, Calvinists are not the only ones who have to reckon with some being determined to eternal torment (I assume you don’t have a problem with some being determined to eternal bliss). On Arminianism, God knows that, should he decide to create, his free creatures will, inevitably, go to Hell since his foreknowledge is unfalsifiable and yet he decides to create anyways.
(5) My comment about atheism was meant for rhetorical force but I think it would be an enlightening experience for an Arminian to have. Try it out some time on a philosophically astute atheist. I have defended my Calvinism in front of people of many different philosophical persuasions (some have changed their views other have not) but I don’t have the same problems that many of the Arminians have in this thread because I don’t make silly accusations regarding other view points that can easily be turned around on me. (By the way, I’m not saying that you have intentionally.)
God bless.
November 23rd, 2011 at 4:09 pm
William said:
‘I embrace Open Theism as the more biblical, coherent view. I imagine all views of providence see God as the first mover. The problem is to see Him as the Unmoved Mover of pagan philosophy instead of the Most Moved Mover (Open Theist Clark Pinnock book title) of the Bible.’
This is mere assertion. You need to provide some argumentation if you expect us to reject one of the most universally held doctrines of the Church from it’s very inception.
And to claim that Open Theism is more Biblical is simply ridiculous. The God of the Bible makes foreknowledge a test of divinity:
‘Set forth your case, says the LORD; bring your proofs, says the King of Jacob. Let them bring them, and tell us what is to happen. Tell us the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, that we may know their outcome; or declare to us the things to come. Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods; do good, or do harm, that we may be dismayed and terrified.’
(Isaiah 41:21-23 ESV)
‘Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.’
(Isaiah 42:9 ESV)
‘All the nations gather together, and the peoples assemble. Who among them can declare this, and show us the former things? Let them bring their witnesses to prove them right, and let them hear and say, It is true. “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior. I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and I am God.”’
(Isaiah 43:9-12 ESV)
‘Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.’
(Isaiah 44:7 ESV)
‘“The former things I declared of old; they went out from my mouth, and I announced them; then suddenly I did them, and they came to pass. Because I know that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your forehead brass, I declared them to you from of old, before they came to pass I announced them to you, lest you should say, ‘My idol did them, my carved image and my metal image commanded them.’ “You have heard; now see all this; and will you not declare it? From this time forth I announce to you new things, hidden things that you have not known. They are created now, not long ago; before today you have never heard of them, lest you should say, ‘Behold, I knew them.’
(Isaiah 48:3-7 ESV)
(If you want more check out http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/OpenTheism.htm)
The degree of self-deception it must take to say that Open Theism is Biblical is staggering.
William said:
‘Molinism is confusing and convoluted, problematic and overly philosophical in my opinion (counterfactuals of freedom, middle knowledge, etc.).’
I’m no friend of Molinism but at least it makes an attempt to deal with the Bible. That can not be said about Open Theism.
November 23rd, 2011 at 6:56 pm
David J. Houton argues that “Calvinists (in agreement with Scripture) *do* make a distinction between foreknowledge and election” (November 21st, 2011 at 9:23 pm).
It is appreciated whenever someone attempts to correct what they believe is an error regarding my theological understanding or position for there ought always to be room for and change. However, David’s argument is not convincing.
The claim that Calvinist “*do* make a distinction between foreknowledge and election” is inaccurate. There may be differences of opinion among Calvinists with reference to “foreknew” in Rom 8:29, but there are those who equate “foreknowledge” with “election” or, at least, blur the distinction between them.
In my previous comment I quoted James White, which may have been missed, as one example of a Calvinist, who seems to blur this distinction at the least.
Furthermore:
In the NIV Study Bible, Walter W. Wessel, referring to Rom 8:29, notes that some hold God “knew us, in the sense of choosing us”.
Citing Rom 8:29, in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Everett F. Harrison contends foreknowledge “refers to God’s choice, his electing decision.”
In the Black’s NT Commentary, C.K. Barrett states that “It is not easy to distinguish between ‘foreknew’ and ‘fore-ordained. God’s knowledge must surely involve ordination…”
C.E.B. Cranfield, in his commentary on Romans (ICC), states that the foreknowledge in Rom 8:29 “is God’s electing grace.”
Millard J. Erickson states that “foreknowledge as used in Rom 8:29 carries with it the idea of favorable disposition or selection as well as advance knowledge” (Christian Theology, p.383).
William W. Klein (who is not a Calvinist), in “God’s Chosen People”, quotes Bultman from the TDNT 1:715 to say that God’s foreknowledge “is an election or foreordination of His people…” While in the abridged TDNT, “foreknow”, citing Rom 8:29, is defined both as “to know in advance” and “refers to God’s foreknowledge as election…” (p.123).
John Calvin, in his Institutes, wrote that “the foreknowledge of God” is the “adoption by which he always distinguished his children from the reprobate”, clearly giving, at the least, elective significance to the term “foreknowledge”
(http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom38.xii.ix.html).
Laurence M. Vance (also not a Calvinist) in “The Other Side of Calvinism”, quotes Augustine (who, as I understand, influenced, Calvin) writing in “On the Gift of Perseverance” that “sometimes the same predestination [i.e. to salvation] is signified also under the name of foreknowledge.”
In his “Commentary on Romans”, Frederic L. Godet contends, “Some have given to the word ‘foreknow’ the meaning of ‘elect, choose, destine’ beforehand (Mel., Calv., Ruck., DeWette., etc.).”
DAVID: “The kind of ‘knowing’ that is in view here [Rom 8:29] is God’s loving his people. He ‘foreloved’ them.”
Nelson: Nevertheless, (a) there are those of the Reformed and Calvinist persuasion (as shown above), that either equate “foreknew” with divine election or, at least, give it elective significance, and (b) in Rom 8:29, the word for “foreknew” (as Klein on Rom 11:22, quoting H.A.W. Meyer contends), “never in the NT…means anything else but to know beforehand” (“God’s Chosen People”, p.161).
DAVID: “I fail to see how it can mean simply prescience (unless we are Universalists)…”
Nelson: That understanding “foreknew” as prescience leads to Universalism can only be argued by holding Calvinistic presuppositions. Classical Arminian theological presuppositions, as far as I understand them, lend no support to and actually deny Universalism.
In any case, I believe your main objection regarding how I claimed Calvinism views “foreknew” is adequately answered.
November 23rd, 2011 at 7:19 pm
[...] Horton, a pretty amiable Calvinist, and author of the book For Calvinism, recently did a post on why he believes that Arminians runs into the same “character of God” issues as [...]
November 24th, 2011 at 5:58 am
[...] Making God a Monster Reformed theology has maintained consistently that Scripture teaches God’s exhaustive sovereignty and human responsibility. God does not cause evil. In fact, God does not force anyone to do anything against his or her will. And yet, nothing lies outside of the wise, loving, good, and just plan “of him who works all things after the council of his own will” (Eph 1:11).That God’s sovereignty and human responsibility are true, no serious student of Scripture can deny. How they can be true is beyond our capacity to understand. As Calvin put the matter, following Luther, any attempt to unravel the mystery of predestination and human responsibilty beyond Scripture is a “seeking outside the way.” “Better to limp along this path,” says Calvin, “than to rush with all speed outside of it.” [...]
November 24th, 2011 at 6:38 am
[...] the rest here. GA_googleAddAttr("AdOpt", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Origin", "other"); [...]
November 24th, 2011 at 8:42 am
David,
Thanks for the response to clear things up. I think, however, your argument about Romans 8 loses a lot of persuasive power on it’s face trying to force one sentence into a logical truism when we would both agree that it has a lot more meaning outside the sentence. For example, it is perfectly reasonable to import the “those” from the “those who love him, who are called according to his purposes” from the verses just preceding it. In no way would one be forced to say that because it says “those whom he foreknew” that it either means all people of whose existence he foreknew or all those who he will unconditionally save, either few or universal. I see no reason why we can’t say the foreknowledge is simple and specifically of those who will believe. We both agree the foreknowledge is specific. Your trying to make it include unconditional election through irresistible means is what is objectionable. This is somewhat tied to the “problem” you have with Arminianism. Can you answer me why God would create people who knew would rebel and only choose to save some of them and have no plan to save the others. I understand that the fallen lump freely fell even in Calvinism. Once again, the two systems agree here. However, Arminianism describes God as foreknowing the fall and planning to rescue creation. Calvinism, on the other hand, describes God as foreknowing the fall, choosing to make it occur in this way (also consistent with Arminianism so far), and then only choosing to save some. The two systems diverge at this last point. Arminianism, here, describes God as desiring to save all but only choosing to save those who would believe in him following his own work and provocation. Thus, we Arminians argue that God has a genuine desire to save all, indeed even has a plan that he genuinely extends to all even though we don’t see the visible means of his grace being presented to all, but God only saves those who don’t continue in rebellion and receive Christ as the cornerstone rather than tripping over him as the stumbling block. Calvinism differs here, again as I have already argued before, in that God only planned to save some. As I already said, I have shared my views with nonbelievers of many different philosophical aptitude levels before. I have heard one person ask, “Why create at all?” Augustine answers this question in his treatment of freedom of the will. The point is that Calvinism can only share this “problem” at best, at worst for Calvinism the problem becomes that God really created an inescapable damnation for most people. Again, Calvinism evades the worst scenario, if you are not an omni-causal supralapsarian, by pointing back to the fall to place the blame. While I agree this is good and right, I think unconditional election takes back what the right hand gave by saying that God foreknew all of this and only ever planned to save some. The Calvinist refuses to go there, which is why we can have fellowship (because we both believe in a God of love and justice). The Arminian is satisfied with the point at which we must confess God has the sovereign right to create because he has created all things in accordance with his wisdom and justice. Furthermore, we are content because the scriptural witness and our interpretation seem to resonate with perfect justice and mercy, whichever side of the rock, Jesus Christ, we find ourselves on. Whereas in one system, someone could complain, “Why would God create me at all?” in the Arminian system we can reply, “How can you remain unthankful for the existence the creator gave you and, furthermore, you have no room to complain because he offers you forgiveness through his grace.”
November 24th, 2011 at 9:08 am
More for David,
Some clarifying notes:On your number 2, Augustine rejects your deduction that simple foreknowledge leads to determinism in his treatise on freedom of the will in Book III by simply saying that to know something will certainly happen is different from causing it to certainly happen. Your quick assertion that simple foreknowledge leads to determinism misfires on this point. Indeed, it could seem that way since God is the creator of all things, and this is where Arminians hold the tension of mystery (we are comfortable with a metaphysical paradox here as we are in the doctrine of the Trinity). We are uncomfortable with the location of the Calvinist paradox because it’s location is morale, namely God’s justice, goodness, and love. Furthermore, on number 2, I’m not sure what your conception of LFW is, but it seems clear to me from our discussion earlier about people having freewill, though depraved, as well as my reading of Horton’s book that most (if not most, we can say many) Calvinists believe in a notion of free will that we could comfortably call libertarian in the sense that people really have choices given to them by God. If you want to renig on this, it’s kind of hard to, then, go back and affirm that God is not the author of sin and evil. The reason these things seem similar to determinism is because Arminianism also affirms God’s sovereign governance over history. We simply say he is not governing irresistibly and meticulously in most things though he has the right to. As I have said earlier in this blog, the disagreement is not really over providence given the best understanding of both positions. Back to your original question though, I do not necessarily mean LFW if I don’t understand it correctly. By “this,” I mean God’s decision to create a world that would freely rebel against him and his decision to extend salvation to it, which to me seems to imply at least some strong notion of free will.
On your number 3, I didn’t say all Calvinists are omni-causalists. The term is used by Horton in his book; I also think the term is pretty clear. I merely wondered if you might be of that variety. I’m pretty sure from your response that you are not.
I hope by now you can see how, from my POV, my accusation about Calvinism is not silly and also cannot be turned around on me. The positions are different. In Arminianism, people may not agree with the means God has provided salvation and forgiveness, but you can’t argue that he was unjust to create. Again, the basic argument against Calvinism is that it seems to describe a God who created people who he knew would rebel and had no intention or real desire for their salvation. I know this is not what you believe, but it is what I believe is the problem. Again, I know Calvinism evades this by saying that the people freely rebelled, but I’d like to point out that this accusation was made in this thread by a Calvinist against an Arminian saying that Arminianism made God seem vindictive. Arminianism describes God as having a good plan and desire for all of his rebellious creation, only most of them will not accept his terms. Calvinism, on the other hand, describes God as never having a desire or plan to save most of the creation, but only chooses some. So, sure, Calvinism can affirm that God is not the author of sin; however, Calvinism cannot even begin to answer the question, “why?” Arminianism, on the other hand, can firmly locate God’s reasons in his wisdom and love. (I think you would also attribute God’s reason to his wisdom and love, but I don’t think you can affirm that through reason, whereas I think Arminianism can coherently make this argument.
November 24th, 2011 at 9:32 am
Nelson said:
‘David J. Houton argues that “Calvinists (in agreement with Scripture) *do* make a distinction between foreknowledge and election” (November 21st, 2011 at 9:23 pm).
It is appreciated whenever someone attempts to correct what they believe is an error regarding my theological understanding or position for there ought always to be room for and change.’
Correction is my love language!
Nelson said:
‘However, David’s argument is not convincing.’
Nelson said:
‘The claim that Calvinist “*do* make a distinction between foreknowledge and election” is inaccurate. There may be differences of opinion among Calvinists with reference to “foreknew” in Rom 8:29, but there are those who equate “foreknowledge” with “election” or, at least, blur the distinction between them.
In my previous comment I quoted James White, which may have been missed, as one example of a Calvinist, who seems to blur this distinction at the least.
Furthermore… [long list of quotes from Calvinists who seem to blur the distinction]’
Perhaps there are those who equate the two. However, the far more popular view is that, although foreknowledge and election are intimately intertwined, they are distinct concepts. I’ve got Grudem’s Systematic Theology in the vicinity so allow me to quote his definitions of the two:
‘election: An act of God before creation in which he chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any foreseen merit in them, but only because of his sovereign good pleasure.’ (Grudem, ST, 1241)
‘foreknowledge: Relating to the doctrine of election, the personal, relational knowledge by which God thought of certain people in a saving relationship to himself before creation. This is to be distinguished from the mere knowledge of facts about a person.’ (Grudem, ST, 1242)
Very similar but still different.
Nelson said:
‘(b) in Rom 8:29, the word for “foreknew” (as Klein on Rom 11:22, quoting H.A.W. Meyer contends), “never in the NT…means anything else but to know beforehand” (“God’s Chosen People”, p.161).’
I’ve provided an argument for why that cannot be the case and that if we read ‘foreknowledge’ as having considerable overlap with the doctrine of election the passage becomes crystal clear. I hope you will interact with it.
Nelson said:
‘That understanding “foreknew” as prescience leads to Universalism can only be argued by holding Calvinistic presuppositions. Classical Arminian theological presuppositions, as far as I understand them, lend no support to and actually deny Universalism.’
But I haven’t been making my argument based on Calvinistic presuppositions. I’ve been making exegetical arguments. I have already said that classical Arminians are not universalists but, I have argued, their reading of Rom 8:29 entails universalism. This is an argument about the Arminian exegesis not about the views of individual Arminians on universalism.
God bless.
November 24th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
[...] sund kristen kan benægte hverken det første eller det sidste. Michael Horton, har i en glimrende blogpost, analyseret problemet ved Hyper-Calvinisme og [...]
November 24th, 2011 at 8:29 pm
Hey Kyle Carney,
Just wanted to let you know that I just noticed the comments you addressed to me. I don’t know how I missed them… too many late nights I guess!
Anyways, I’m bushed so I’m gonna get some sleep but, Lord willing, I’ll reply tomorrow.
God bless.
November 24th, 2011 at 9:22 pm
No worries, you should definitely just get sleep. This conversation has been going on a long time… in history.
God bless you, too. And happy thanksgiving!
November 25th, 2011 at 9:41 pm
Hey Kyle Carney,
Thanks for your patience and for wishing me a Happy Thanksgiving. Same to you! I’m Canadian so I had my Thanksgiving a month ago (we like to have ample time to digest before Christmas dinner rolls around) so I’ll pretend you’re wishing me a happy Friday.
You said:
‘Thanks for the response to clear things up. I think, however, your argument about Romans 8 loses a lot of persuasive power on it’s face trying to force one sentence into a logical truism when we would both agree that it has a lot more meaning outside the sentence. For example, it is perfectly reasonable to import the “those” from the “those who love him, who are called according to his purposes” from the verses just preceding it. In no way would one be forced to say that because it says “those whom he foreknew” that it either means all people of whose existence he foreknew or all those who he will unconditionally save, either few or universal. I see no reason why we can’t say the foreknowledge is simple and specifically of those who will believe. We both agree the foreknowledge is specific. Your trying to make it include unconditional election through irresistible means is what is objectionable.’
Your response is not unreasonable. Context should play a large part in our interpretation of Scripture and this passage is no exception. However, even if we import ‘those’ there are still problems with your understanding of ‘foreknowledge’ as mere prescience. Paul tells us in v28 that ‘we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose’. He then explains how this is possible in vv29-30:
‘For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.’
(1) Notice how faith is **not** a condition for the process described in Rom 8:29-30. Rather, the statement in v28 applies to the entire lifespan of the believer and, obviously, includes their life prior to conversion. Paul can say that all things work together for good for believers because God has been behind the scenes ordering all things so as to work together for their good. So you’ve got it backwards. The fact that you have faith comes after God’s foreknowing and predestining and calling you in the order of explanation. You have faith because God has been orchestrating all things for you (as an individual believer) and the rest of the church. Now that’s reason to be thankful!
(2) In my exchange with Nelson, I argued that Biblically speaking there is a difference between foreknowledge and election and that the Reformed follow this distinction in their theology. However, I was wrong. The Reformed do make a dogmatic distinction between the two concepts but the Biblical language makes no such distinction. I was made aware of this only recently, so Nelson will have to forgive me, but the word ‘proginosko’ in v29 that we translate ‘foreknowledge’ actually means to ‘choose beforehand’ (BDAG, 866b. – thanks to Steve Hays for bringing this to my attention) Which obviously fits the Reformed interpretation of this passage.
(3) It’s a good thing that it does mean to ‘choose beforehand’ since if it simply meant pre-science then no one would be saved. You see, it is God who gives us saving faith as a gift (Eph 2:8-9) so if God conditions his election on foreseen faith he wouldn’t see any because the faith requisite for salvation is given by him at his liberty. But suppose you argue that the gift of faith is given to all people but it is up to them to accept it (that idea is found nowhere in Scripture but I’ve heard it from enough Arminians) then we have the same problem. In Romans 8:8 we read, ‘Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.’ So my question is, ‘does saving faith please God’? If it does then no one ‘in the flesh’ (that is, unbelievers) can come to faith and no one is saved. So you avoid this difficult and say ‘no’. Well that puts you in the awkward position of believing that when a person comes to faith this doesn’t please God when the Scriptures clearly teach that all Heaven rejoices when a single sheep comes to the Good Shepherd. Either way you’re stuck! Better just to drop the pre-science interpretation.
There were a number of confusions that I noticed throughout your comments regarding your understanding of the Calvinistic view of providence and Libertarian Free-Will (LFW) which is understandable since even Reformed theologians make mistakes in this area.
We should clarify some of the terms that are likely to come up. LFW is the doctrine that freedom and moral responsibility are incompatible with determinism. Something is ‘determined’, according to a pretty standard definition, ‘when there are prior conditions [such as the laws of nature, or the decree of God, or the manipulation of a demon, or sociological conditions, or a combination, or etc.] that obtain and which are sufficient for the event or action occurring. That is, it must be the case that if these prior conditions occur, then the event or action in question must occur’. (I took this definition out of Paul Manata’s helpful article on Reformed Theology and Free-Will found here: http://analytictheologye4c5.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/free-will-and-moral-responsibility-intro11.pdf)
Now, Calvinism does not teach that LFW is lost as a consequence of man’s fall and the subsequent state of total depravity that he finds himself in. Rather, LFW is incompatible with Reformed theology because it takes seriously the Biblical teaching of theological determinism.
Several passages teach that God determines everything…
‘Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?’
(Lamentations 3:37-38)
‘In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will’
(Ephesians 1:11)
‘And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.’
(Romans 8:28)
That there is nothing that does not happen according to his plan…
‘declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’’
(Isaiah 46:10)
‘Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.’
(Psalm 115:3)
The Scriptures even teach that he determines human decisions…
‘And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life. For the famine has been in the land these two years, and there are yet five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvest.’
(Genesis 45:5-6)
‘As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.’
(Genesis 50:20)
That root of human decisions is the heart and that he is in control of man’s heart and yet, ‘The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.’ (Proverbs 21:1) He even hardens hearts. (Ex 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10, 14:4, 8.)
He commands Isaiah to, “Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.””
(Isaiah 6:9-10)
Isaiah is upset by this and asks, “O LORD, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.” (Isaiah 63:17)
That he determines specific sins…
In 2 Samuel 24, the Lord incites David to take a census that he later judges him for.
In Revelation 17:17, God puts into the hearts of the ten horns (kings) to give their power over to the beast (clearly a sin!).
Perhaps the most shocking example is of the crucifixion of our sinless Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, who was ‘delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.’ (Acts 2:23)
Salvation is also all of him according to John 6, John 10, Romans 9, Ephesians 1-3, etc.
Rather than being an oddity of Reformed theology, determinism is thoroughly Biblical.
Now, I’m not sure if by saying these things I fall into what you, following Horton, would call an ‘Omni-causal supralapsarian’ but allow me to explain why I think the term is unhelpful:
(1) Referring to God as ‘omni-causal’ sounds like the doctrine of occasionalism but most Reformed theologians are not occasionalists. In fact, it’s expressly ruled out by the Westminster Confession of Faith. However, if you mean by ‘omni-causal’ the view that everything that happens was foreordained or determined by God sometimes as a result of his direct activity and sometimes as a result of secondary causes then, yes, I believe that God is ‘omni-causal’ as do the majority of Reformed believers. However, it would be misleading to describe our position on God’s sovereignty as ‘omni-causal’.
(2) Supralapsarianism is a position concerning the issue of the ‘order of decrees’ but it does not commit one to occasionalism and does not affect one’s view on theological determinism. Most infralapsarians hold to theological determinism too.
You seem to assume throughout your response that LFW is necessary in order to be held morally responsible but, given the Scriptural data I’ve provided that teaches that man is determined and the Biblical truth that we are morally responsible, this cannot be the case. Rather, the Calvinist view, in line with Scripture, teaches that theological determinism and moral responsibility are compatible. In fact, we call the view that determinism is compatible with freedom and/or moral responsibility ‘compatibilism’.
Given compatibilism, it is perfectly consistent to say that God ordained the fall and yet man is responsible. It also eliminates the charge that God is ‘the author of sin’ (an ambiguous charge) because, although he foreordains that his creatures would sin, he himself does not sin.
Now, that we’ve laid the ground work it’s time to interact with some more of your comment:
You said:
‘Arminianism describes God as having a good plan and desire for all of his rebellious creation, only most of them will not accept his terms. Calvinism, on the other hand, describes God as never having a desire or plan to save most of the creation, but only chooses some. So, sure, Calvinism can affirm that God is not the author of sin; however, Calvinism cannot even begin to answer the question, “why?” ‘Arminianism, on the other hand, can firmly locate God’s reasons in his wisdom and love. (I think you would also attribute God’s reason to his wisdom and love, but I don’t think you can affirm that through reason, whereas I think Arminianism can coherently make this argument.’
(1) It’s debatable that, on Arminianism, God really does have a ‘good plan and desire for all of his rebellious creation’ but more on that below.
(2) Who said that Calvinism teaches that most will not be saved? There’s nothing essential to Calvinism that necessitates that the reprobate outnumber the elect. In fact, many Calvinists deny this as an outworking of their belief in postmillennialism – a popular view among Reformed Christians.
(3) Why can’t Calvinists provide an answer for why God created? Why can’t we also find God’s reason for creating in his wisdom and love? I assume that you believe Calvinists cannot answer these questions because of the doctrine of reprobation but the Bible speaks very clearly on the purpose of the reprobate.
For instance, Proverbs 16:4 says that ‘The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.’ But why do a thing like that? Seems odd if he always intended to save the wicked doesn’t it? The reason that God created the reprobate can be found in Rom 9:22-23: ‘What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.’ They serve the purpose of revealing his glory in his justice and wrath to the object of his mercy, his elect, so that we might praise him for it. It is part of the riches of his kindness that he reveals himself fully to his elect so that they might understand the mercy that they have been shown. (Eph 2:7)
It is out of God’s wisdom and his love **for the elect** that he has created the reprobate.
And remember, if compatibilism is true then the reprobate can be held responsible for their wickedness. We would have suffered the same fate had it not been for God showing us his mercy. He could justly create us and throw each one of us sinners into Hell but he sovereignly decided to save some of us. He was not obligated to save everyone.
Now, in defense of Horton’s argument, I believe that if the God of Calvinism can be called a ‘moral monster’ then so can the Arminian God. The God of Calvinism does not truly want to save everyone (although Horton might disagree with me here and say that ‘in some sense’ he does but he chooses not to) but, then again, neither does the Arminian God. He decided to create those he foreknew would reject him and spend eternity in Hell, didn’t he? The God of Calvinism ordains that evil occur but is it really so different to foreknow every instance of evil that will occur should you create and yet choose to do it anyways? I submit that for every objection that can be raised against the character of the Calvinist God a parallel objection can be raised against the Arminian God.
I hope this clarifies my earlier comments. I also hope this isn’t too much all at once!
God bless.
November 26th, 2011 at 7:41 pm
Howdy David,
I’m not going to give a very satisfying response yet. I will try to give you one soon, but I need to spend more of my spare time with the Lord in his word and taking care of business today. Sorry my thanksgiving wishes were so late for you!
I will go ahead and tell you where many of my comments will be directed. I think you impose a deterministic understanding onto the scriptures you cited. Your interpretations are reasonable, but I don’t think they are best. However, I will also go ahead and say again, that you work so hard to defend God’s goodness alongside your view of his sovereignty is why I consider you my brother in Christ based on your comments here. When I do comment, I’m not sure if I will try to tackle your whole response or if I will try to handle one piece per post. In closing for now, I will comment that we disagree about how the accusations about God having a dubious character can only be made about Calvinism because Arminianism actually explains how God can have a real desire to save all and yet only choose to save some whereas Calvinism cannot say the same. I have heard some Calvinist teachers say that God has two-wills and his desire to show his power in wrath outweighs his desire to show his grace in salvation to all (I’m sure they packaged this idea in more acceptable rhetorical terms when I heard it). This is the only way I have heard anyone say, from a Calvinist perspective, that God has some desire to save all without simply calling that desire inexplicable.
Like I said before, this response is probably not satisfying enough since you laid out a good case. I have many thoughts, and I will try to get back to you soon.
November 26th, 2011 at 11:43 pm
Btw, one more tidbit for today(I had to get this little nagging thought out of my head). I don’t know the fellow you cite on your Romans 8 greek for the word “he foreknew.” However, Strong’s cites the first two definitions as simply “to foreknow” and “to have knowledge beforehand.” But, then, there is a third definition, “to predestinate.” I don’t know how that makes sense since it literally is the word for knowledge fixed to the prefix meaning before. However, even if we grant the third definition, are you suggesting it reads, “those whom he predestined he predestined?” A circular argument doesn’t really fit in this passage. Paul isn’t trying to repeat something to say God simply does what he wants. Paul is enumerating God’s actions all over our salvation. Thus, it really seems simple foreknowledge is in view. It really feels like you want it to take on a different meaning to fit your theology. Most Calvinists I have read don’t argue this way at this passage. Most go philosophical and say that God exhaustively determines everything and, thus, he knows ahead of time what he has predestined. I just think it is worth noting that your argument seems to be a minority position on the surface.
I will try to get to your other remarks soon. Sadly, I will probably not be able to keep myself from commenting. I really enjoy our interaction. It’s a little addicting. I will probably have to take a break in the near future.
Lord bless you as well.
November 29th, 2011 at 4:02 am
Hey Kyle,
I’ll respond to what you’ve said so far so as to save time.
Kyle Carney said: ‘However, I will also go ahead and say again, that you work so hard to defend God’s goodness alongside your view of his sovereignty is why I consider you my brother in Christ based on your comments here.’
You’d be hard-pressed to find a Calvinist who doesn’t, brother.
Kyle Carney said: ‘I have heard some Calvinist teachers say that God has two-wills and his desire to show his power in wrath outweighs his desire to show his grace in salvation to all (I’m sure they packaged this idea in more acceptable rhetorical terms when I heard it). This is the only way I have heard anyone say, from a Calvinist perspective, that God has some desire to save all without simply calling that desire inexplicable.’
This is the standard Calvinist response these days. I have sympathies for the approach but ultimately find it unhelpful. When we couple the Biblical teachings of election and reprobation with the doctrine of impassibility (a hallmark of classical theism) I don’t see what sense can be made of God **desiring** to save the reprobate without **actually** saving them (especially in light of Ps 115:3). And as I said earlier, I don’t think it’s incumbent upon God to love sinners or ‘desire’ their salvation in any sense. Since Ps 5:5, Ps 11:5, and Pro 6:16-19, not to mention the numerous references to the wrath of God resting upon the unbeliever in the NT, clearly teach that God hates sinners and that unless you are in Christ the wrath of God rests upon you. The question then is where does it say that God wants to save everyone… even non-Christians?
Kyle Carney said: ‘I don’t know the fellow you cite on your Romans 8 greek for the word “he foreknew.” However, Strong’s cites the first two definitions as simply “to foreknow” and “to have knowledge beforehand.” But, then, there is a third definition, “to predestinate.” I don’t know how that makes sense since it literally is the word for knowledge fixed to the prefix meaning before. However, even if we grant the third definition, are you suggesting it reads, “those whom he predestined he predestined?” A circular argument doesn’t really fit in this passage. Paul isn’t trying to repeat something to say God simply does what he wants. Paul is enumerating God’s actions all over our salvation. Thus, it really seems simple foreknowledge is in view. It really feels like you want it to take on a different meaning to fit your theology. Most Calvinists I have read don’t argue this way at this passage. Most go philosophical and say that God exhaustively determines everything and, thus, he knows ahead of time what he has predestined. I just think it is worth noting that your argument seems to be a minority position on the surface.’
(1) Just so you know, I was citing from A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition which is a very reputable resource.
(2) It makes sense when you take into account that the term ‘know’, in Hebrew thought, is pregnant with meaning. I already mentioned how Adam ‘knew’ Eve and she conceived. (There’s knowing and then there’s **knowing** if you catch my drift!) Further examples can be found in Gen 18:19 (the ESV actually renders ‘know’ as ‘chosen’) and Amos 3:2. Take the Amos 3:2 passage for example: Do we really believe that God only knew about the family of Israel? Clearly it means ‘chosen’ or ‘entered into relationship with’ or ‘loved’ in this context. This is the sense of ‘know’ that is in view in Rom 8:29.
(3) Does this have the effect of making v29 mean ‘those whom he predestined he predestined’? No, it doesn’t. It renders it: ‘those whom he “chose beforehand” or “entered into relationship with before” or “fore-loved” he predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son’. This ‘fore-loving’ begins even before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and, from the context, applies only to Christians (which I believe you agree with).
(4) Ironically, it is your own account that makes v29 redundant since, on your view, God foreknows what will happen and then predestines what he foreknows will happen. But this begs the question, if he’s already seen that it will happen then what is he supposed to be doing when he ‘predestines’ it? It would be like a person watching a hockey game where the Ottawa Senators win 4-3 against Toronto and then going to his friends place to watch a recording of the same game and telling his friend that he is responsible for the outcome of the game because he pressed the play button and ‘foreknew’ that the Senators would win.
(5) If most Calvinists you have read don’t make this move you’re not reading the right Calvinists. Check out the standard Systematics like Bavinck, Berkhof, Grudem, etc. Moo has a good commentary on this passage that I highly recommend where he builds on many of the points that I’ve provided as well as providing a few more. John Murray is another example of a Calvinist who argues this point. Come to think of it… I can’t think of a single Calvinist that I’ve read whose commented on this passage and hasn’t argued this point! It would be crazy not to when it is considered a classic proof text for Arminianism.
(6) We can get you with philosophy too!
When you do get back to me, I was hoping that you could respond to this paragraph of my earlier response since this was the topic that we were supposed to be debating:
‘Now, in defense of Horton’s argument, I believe that if the God of Calvinism can be called a ‘moral monster’ then so can the Arminian God. The God of Calvinism does not truly want to save everyone (although Horton might disagree with me here and say that ‘in some sense’ he does but he chooses not to) but, then again, neither does the Arminian God. He decided to create those he foreknew would reject him and spend eternity in Hell, didn’t he? The God of Calvinism ordains that evil occur but is it really so different to foreknow every instance of evil that will occur should you create and yet choose to do it anyways? I submit that for every objection that can be raised against the character of the Calvinist God a parallel objection can be raised against the Arminian God.’
I’ll add that God not only creates those who do evil but also sustains them in existence as they do various evils so the problem is even more acute.
God bless.
November 29th, 2011 at 4:05 am
Just to clarify… when I wrote: ‘The question then is where does it say that God wants to save everyone… even non-Christians?’
I meant to say,’even those who never put their faith in Christ’.
November 30th, 2011 at 8:18 pm
Howdy David,
I will make a couple quick comments and, then, move back to the center of the debate. First, to keep the debate more on point, I will only briefly comment on some things. I have read Grudem’s commentary on this point. He only mentions about the foreknowledge that it is about knowing the whole person and not facts about the person, which I find still agreeable with Arminian thought and unpersuasive as a rebuttal against it. Ironically, Grudem’s podcast over a class he taught over his commentary as well as DA Carson’s book The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God are two of the catylists that I believe opened my eyes to large inconsistencies in Calvinist thought pushing me from calling myself a Amyraldian to a Classical Arminian to describe my views on election and predestination. In brief, to say that this word means “fore-loved” is consistent with Arminian thought.
Your analogy about watching a game doesn’t come close to describing the Arminian idea of God. Rather what you said describes a deist view of God. The Arminian view of God sees God as deciding to create each player, knowing all their person plus their attributes and future moves, deciding to create (in my thought it’s like a double decision to create, but in this analogy void of moral tension there is no need to decide to create “despite” something), and deciding to become the referee, best coach, and the primary player all at the same time to determine the outcome.
Also, I feel I should mention that I totally believe God is righteous and just in punishing people in hell as well as, of course, saving people. I read into some of the comments you make that perhaps you think I’m squeamish with the idea of hell. It is a difficult doctrine for everyone in some ways, but it is completely biblical and completely in sync with my thought and the thought of all Classical and Wesleyan Arminians.
November 30th, 2011 at 9:19 pm
About the scriptures that you cited, Classical (what I would also called reformed) Arminians affirm that God controls humanity to work all things for his purposes. Many Arminians get caught on the wrong side of this by arguing too strongly for LFW as if we are not fallen and God owes us all free will all the time. However, I think Calvinist thought, and your thought, on this errs when saying that God determines evil to happen (though many Calvinists here are more careful; I agree the WCoF is also careful enough). It is truly different to say that he sovereignly decided to create free beings, saw their rebellion, sovereignly allowed it knowing how to wisely govern it within the confines of his own goodness, how to punish it, how to reconcile it, and, furthermore, how to use the evil to bring about his own glory and good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose. Thus, I’m at ease saying God ordained something evil with those caveats I have listed, but to say he determined it seems different to me, which would make God the author of the sin. You want to introduce the idea of compatibilism here to solve the problem, but I actually argue that Arminianism is a compatible solution to God’s sovereign decrees and man’s responsibility whereas by saying that God determines sin so that it will happen takes back the other things you say about the rebellious creature actually being rebellious on his or her own. I decided to go on a little long with this because it gets back to the central issue here.
The charges of immorality on God’s part cannot be raised against the Arminian view in the same way as they can about the Calvinist view. The most basic charge would be that God decide to create a world full of evil. Arminianism interprets scripture as saying God allowed the creatures to choose evil and sovereignly chose the only means by which redemption and forgiveness would be offered, meanwhile he also governs the evil through his own goodness so that it serves his holy purpose. Calvinism (in the best sense), on the other hand, says God predestined and determined all things, including all actions of people, yet somehow he is not responsible for the evil. I think the way you comment on some of the scriptures above runs you close to occasionalism, which is the same thing meant by omni-causal. Again, I think we are close to being on the same page, but I think the word determined is wrong to use with God’s relationship to evil. I am comfortable with “control,” “mitigate,” “uses,” “plans for,” and even “fore-ordains” with certain caveats already mentioned summing up to mean knowing beforehand, using, controlling, allowing, and planning for (but not causing).
I really do think the order of decrees is central to this issue. Many Arminians believe there is no real sense in infra-lapsarianism, thus they ignore this position and the critic usually focuses on supralapsarianism. However, for Classical Arminians really in line with Jacob Arminius’ thoughts, the issues have more to do with questions like “What is the nature of the ‘lump’?” and “What is the nature of grace?” and “What is God’s purpose?” I would not call an infralapsarian view of God morally contemptible at this point in my theological development, but I would call the supralapsarian view morally contemptible because I believe it forces a view of God as omni-causal including sin and evil.
I go further to embrace the Arminian view because I believe it fully synthesizes God’s desire to save all people created in his image though fallen and undeserving of salvation alongside his sovereignty and choice to only redeem those who would love him through faith in Christ that comes by grace. I believe God would be moral in leaving most(I know you took issue with me saying “most” before, but I don’t believe we can say most people in history and the future will be redeemed to salvation based on reality) in their sins and sustaining his wrath on us. However, I believe the word communicates God’s desire to save all people. 1 Tim 2: 4-6; Isa 45:22; Eze 18:23,32 & 33:11; 2 Pet 3:9; 2 Cor 5:15-19; Jhn 3:15-17; Titus 2:11; Heb 2:9; and by logical extension from the extent of the atonement 1 Jn 2:2. I believe this desire is based on his patient, good, merciful character Psalm 86:15 and 145:17.
Thus, I reject the infralapsarian view as an insufficient view of God’s purpose and plan based on his desires communicated in scripture. That a two-wills Calvinist argument exists is encouraging to the Arminian because it is an acknowledgment of the scriptural witness to this desire of God to forgive all people. God cannot be accused on any basis for determining the means by which people can be saved –especially since the only means is himself. Thus, that most are not saved is not God’s fault or his weakness in Arminian thought; rather, he reconciles most through the justice they deserve rather than through his mercy although this displeases him in a real sense (again refer to Ezekiel). I think the biggest problem with Calvinism in general is that it seems the logic in the system disallows any real desire in God to save the wicked who will be punished, which he clearly has in at least some real sense even though the Calvinist might say it is inexplicable.
November 30th, 2011 at 9:21 pm
Extra note: That God sustains people who do evil can only be a testament to his patience with them. That others suffer wrong at evil doers hands is a complaint against God from outside the reality that we are all sinners, evil, not to mention deserve punishment including suffering during life, and God mitigates this evil though we all want evil to end now (the childbirth pains that we both acknowledge all creation endures).
November 30th, 2011 at 9:37 pm
Another important note: I don’t think you believe God is the author of evil as, obviously, you have stated that. My argument about the determinism language is that it makes the primary cause and the secondary causes inseparable–not inseparable in the sense that they relate to one another but in the sense that they become the same. My complaint about your assertion of compatiblism is that I’m arguing Arminianism is a theological system arguing for the compatibility of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility (free choice to rebel). Still enjoying the interaction.
Lord bless you richly in his grace.
December 3rd, 2011 at 7:58 pm
“Reformed theology has maintained consistently that Scripture teaches God’s exhaustive sovereignty and human responsibility. God does not cause evil.”
It seems to me that Calvinism pretty clearly does teach that God causes evil.
(1) You always do what you most desire, (2) You cannot control what you desire, nor has any other human (save possibly Jesus) had this ability, (3) therefore your desires are either the result of arbitrary chance or creation, (4) they aren’t the result of chance, (5) therefore they are the result of creation, (6) therefore your desires were created (caused) by God (or created and “purposed” to be fallen) (6) therefore your actions are caused by God (albeit indirectly)
Calvinists shouldn’t shy away from this. Edwards didn’t.
“In fact, God does not force anyone to do anything against his or her will.”
Remember that in compatibiblism God’s causing my action is compatible with its being (morally) free. God doesn’t force me to do something against my will, because my will is a passive ability that always does what it most desires. Rather God changes my desires (either by redemption or through “purposing” the fall) and therefore my will.
December 20th, 2011 at 8:48 am
In my opinion, Calvinism wants its cake and to eat it too. That’s why were are handed illustrations about parallel lines that “meet in eternity.” But in reality, they don’t. For instance, 1+1 does not = 3. There is no “higher understanding ” that makes 1+1=3. You can’t say that someone simply hasn’t received their Gnosis yet, or hasn’t “been revealed” this divine truth. It’s just plain false. 1+1 does not equal 3, and never will. So you can’t say that God [inalterably and unilaterally] scripts a person’s thoughts, from cradle to grave, and yet the person is simultaneously a “free agent” with a “will.” C’s can cite “proof-texts” [which they'll do], but it does no good to turn Scripture on its ear to prove that 1+1=3. If God formats a person’s *thoughts*, then that person’s *actions* are a manifestation of the thoughts that he was given. He doesn’t have his own will. He has no self-determination. He has no independent thoughts. He has no rogue thoughts. He is a scripted being, and in no wise free, in any reasonable basis. This is why I can’t be a C, with a clear conscience. C’s have no problem reconciling 1+1=3. But I do.
December 24th, 2011 at 1:59 am
DAVID: (November 24th, 2011 at 9:32 am): “Perhaps there are those who equate the two. However, the far more popular view is that, although foreknowledge and election are intimately intertwined, they are distinct concepts.”
NELSON: Popular or not, you made the claim in an earlier comment that “Calvinists… *do* make a distinction between foreknowledge and election” and further said, “This is standard Calvinist argumentation and if you don’t believe me you can take a look in any Calvinist commentary or Systematic Theology. The fact that you don’t know this is proof that you have not engaged with Calvinist material on this issue.”
I merely took up your challenge to “look in any Calvinist commentary or Systematic Theology”, and showed that there is disagreement between Calvinists re: foreknowledge and election, where some do blur any distinction between them (even Calvin himself!), thus showing the claim you made is mistaken.
Re: Grudem quotes: Unfortunately I do not possess Grudem’s ST but from the quote you offer it does seem he is not differentiating “election” from “foreknowledge” but rather confusing them when he states that this foreknowledge “is to be distinguished from the mere knowledge of facts about a person”. He does not seem to be making much difference in its relationship to the doctrine of election but is equating them in certain respects when it is said that foreknowledge is “relational knowledge…of certain people in a saving relationship…before creation”.
Note that you quote Grudem as stating that “election” is an “act of God” while “foreknowledge” is more than “mere knowledge” of those saved.” From your comments of November 21st, 2011 at 9:23 pm, you seem to agree. As such, your claim to their being “very similar” fudges whatever the differences you may suggest exist.
If not, it needs to be asked in what way do you or Grudem advance the divine foreknowledge, especially with reference to Rom 8:29, beyond “mere knowledge” (prescience) if not in terms of the “act of divine election”?
DAVID: “…classical Arminians are not universalists but, I have argued, their reading of Rom 8:29 entails universalism. This is an argument about the Arminian exegesis not about the views of individual Arminians on universalism.”
NELSON: Again, I reiterate, respecting Rom 8:29, the claim that to “foreknew as prescience leads to Universalism” can only be argued by holding Calvinistic presuppositions and not from any “exegetical arguments” on the basis of the text within an Arminian exegesis.
First, your argument seems to be on the basis of either unconditional election or irresistible grace (unwarranted Calvinistic presuppositions). However, if you take into consideration the position that:
(a) salvation is conditional on believing – e.g. “through faith”, Eph 2:8; “as many as received him”, Jn 1:12 – and,
(b) grace can be resisted – e.g. “ye do always resist”, Acts 7:51; “refuse not him”, Heb 12:25; “ye would not”, Matt 23:37,
than the notion of Universalism is denied any place from an Arminian exegegetical understanding of the text. As such, it can be seen that your argument is based on Calvinistic presuppositions.
If you want to argue for Universalism into the text from the Arminian exegetical position, you cannot argue it from a position which Arminians reject and you espouse.
Second, as far as “foreknow” is to be defined in Rom 8:29, especially in relation to election, I will refer to only two sources:
1. “Vincent’s Word Studies of the NT” 3:95: “It does not mean foreordain. It signifies prescience, not pre-election.” In a footnote, it further states, “the attempt to attach to it the sense of pre-election…has grown out of dogmatic considerations in the interest of a rigid predestinarianism.”
2. Thomas R. Edgar states, “In secular Greek, proginwskw meant ‘to foreknow, to know beforehand’. Scholars do not seriously dispute this definition. It does not refer to electing, loving relationship, or predestination. Biblical interpreters have provided no extra-biblical examples with a meaning other than ‘to know beforehand’.” In their footnote #11, it is further stated, “Moo, Romans, 532, asserts that the NT usage does not conform to the general pattern, thereby revealing that the general pattern does not include the interpretation he imposes on it.” See under the heading, “The Basic Sense of Foreknowledge is Clear”, http://evangelicalarminians.org/files/Edgar.%20Foreknowledge.pdf (also, see my previous comments).
Thirdly, v.29 cannot be viewed apart from v.28, which does show a relationship between “them who love God” (those also who are “the called”) and those “whom [God] did foreknow”. That is, the ones whom God foreknows are identified as “those who love God” (and, therefore, are identified as “the called”; also see also 1 Pet 1:2, which refers the act election as being according to divine foreknowledge).
This suggests God’s prescience of those who would love him (further identified as “the called) and reveals in both verses his acting upon them to assure the end result, v.28 from the standpoint of the objects of God’s purpose and v.29 from the standpoint of the end purposed.
It also should be noted that the text speaks not of specific individuals but “of the corporate body of Christians…the ones who love God’ (Rom 8:28). Furthermore, “Undoubtedly this context is salvific…God foreknows his children: they love him and are [the] called according to his purpose. They all possess salvation” (see “The New Chosen People”, p.163, by William W. Klein). So, in v.29, both the intimacy between God and those foreknown and their possession of salvation and assured end, contextually understood, is not denied.
Nevertheless, the equation, foreknowledge = election or ‘special love’ is erred.
Therefore, I agree that contextually God’s special relationship – and would concede even an electing relationship – with those foreknown might be signified; however, I disagree that the Greek word, “proginwskw”, in v.29 refers to anything beyond mere prescience with respect to those “that love God” and “are the called”.
I hope my interaction, as you requested, has been sufficient to meet your approval, although you may disagree with its findings; and that my response is viewed to be, as I intend it, cordial and respectful.
January 12th, 2012 at 1:16 pm
“The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.” Proverbs 16:1
There’s only one reason I’m a Calvinist: that’s what the bible reveals to be true. Man is responsible, but God is ultimately in control. That’s really all there is to it.
January 12th, 2012 at 6:34 pm
Jeremiah:
Amen, amen, amen and so be it.
January 14th, 2012 at 9:26 am
I got an email update about this, so I will comment only this last time. That you think Arminianism in the truest sense doesn’t agree with Prov 16 shows that you have a weak understanding of the alternatives to Calvinism. I think it’s ironic that someone mentioned Calvinists proof texts only a few posts earlier and yet here you cite one with little support (though none is needed as though we don’t get you think it requires meticulous determinism puppet master god; really you need to show how classic Arminian proofs cannot also incorporate this verse, which you will not be able to do). Having said that, I completely agree with you that Man is responsible and God is in control. I would also say God gives us the answer from the Bible that the idea of foreknowledge (scentia-media) and grace through FAITH in Christ is how the paradox comes together.
This is the last post I’m writing on this thread. But, for all you Calvinists who are not afraid to wrestle with the scriptures a little longer and think about different perspectives, try to read about Arminianism from Arminians instead of from people at this site or your favorite Calvinist authors. I have been taking a class, so I got distracted from For Calvinism, but I plan to continue reading it after I’m finished with my other reading obligations. I just say that to let anyone who’s curious know that, yes, I will continue engaging the scriptures on these complex yet wonderful ideas about the grace of our Lord and reading the Calvinist pov.
February 4th, 2012 at 10:43 pm
“everyone who affirms God’s exhaustive foreknowledge has exactly the same problem as any Calvinist. If God knows that Adam will sin—or that you and I will sin—and could keep it from happening, but does not, and God’s knowledge is infallible, then it is just as certain as if he had predestined it. In fact, it is the same as being predestined.”
It seems that you may not understand what Arminians believe about foreknowledge. I am an open-theist myself, but i still believe that Arminians don’t have a problem here. For Arminians, our future decisions are what actually cause God’s foreknowledge of that event. Roger Olson put it well on his blog, “Our decisions and actions cause God to foreknow.” I would submit that that no longer puts an Arminian in the same dilemma as a Calvinist.
February 10th, 2012 at 11:07 am
I found Michael Horton’s response above to why Calvinism does not make God a moral monster unconvincing.
I’m writing to point out that some of his reasons he gave in his defense did not seem to pass muster:
1. “However, there is one point that is worth pondering briefly: Non-Calvinist theologies are just as vulnerable on this question. …Then the only difference is whether it is determined without purpose or with purpose. …Roger’s weaker claim is still strong enough to get him into the same hot water with the rest of us…. Known as “open theism,” this denial of God’s omniscience recognizes that Arminianism and Calvinism are unable to resolve this dilemma.”
But arguing that his opponent is open to the same charge (“tu quoque”) doesn’t help Calvinism’s case. By the way, I appreciate Horton’s concession that holding his position is akin to being “in hot water”. I agree!
2. “Hyper-Calvinists and hyper-Arminians share the same impatience with mystery… Contradictions are abhorrent to the faith, but every important docrine (sic) in Scripture is shrouded in mystery.”
I’m not sure exactly how to categorize the error of this line of argument (“ad ignorantiem”? “appeal to authority”, “fallacy of equivocation”?), but I’m sure it is making an appeal that is not to evidence and reasoning. Perhaps someone more skillful than I can do it. “Hyper-Calvinists and hyper-Arminians” appears to try to prepare the ground by discrediting the origin of the challenge, “important doctrine in Scripture” appears to appeal to authority, “shrouded in mystery” seems to appeal to ignorance. And if “contradiction” is being “relabeled” as a “mystery”, then perhaps the assertion is that there are some contradictions which pose a genuine problem, but there are others which get a pass because they are a simply mystery to us – while still remaining contradictions, etc. Anyway, I don’t find anything about evidence or reasoning, so I’m left asking why I should accept the argument.
3. “That God’s sovereignty and human responsibility are true, no serious student of Scripture can deny. How they can be true is beyond our capacity to understand.”
This is an (unabashed) appeal to authority, rather than evidence and reason. It invites the charge that the proposition is unreasonable — and unworthy of acceptance.
4. “Neither position [of Hyper-Calvinists and hyper-Arminians] bows reverently before God’s revelation, acknowledging its clear affirmations of divine sovereignty and human responsibility without answering all of our philosophical questions.”
By arguing that Calvinism’s [and Arminianism’s] opponents are “irreverent” when they insist upon an explanation of how sovereignty is reconcilable with human responsibility, Horton criticizes the man for posing the question (“ad hominem”) rather than addressing the issue.
Also, by characterizing his opponent’s as a need for this explanation as a need to have “all of our phililophical questions” answered, Horton makes a “straw man” (“fallacy of extension”).
5. “Hyper-Calvinism and hyper-Arminianism are willing even to set Scripture against Scripture, rejecting some clear teachings in favor of others, for the sake of rational satisfaction. Yet both, in different ways, represent deadly errors—indeed, blasphemies—against the character of God.”
By pointing to the danger (“blasphemy”, “deadly error”) of pursuing rational satisfaction, Horton makes an irrational argument (“ad baculum”?). Also, maybe I’m too sensitive, but the term “rational satisfaction” strikes me as having an unseemly, indulgent ring to it. Could we substitute the term “discovering the truth” and still mean the same thing?
6. “Any view that makes God the author of sin does indeed turn the object of our worship into a moral monster. However, any deity who merely stands around reluctantly permitting horrible things for which he has no greater purpose in view, is equally reprehensible… Mercifully, Scripture does reveal that God does exactly that. Roger agrees that God “chose to allow” suffering and sin (72). The Calvinist says that God chose to allow them for a reason. It’s permitting rather than creating, but it’s permission with a purpose. Permission without purpose makes God a “moral monster” indeed.”
As at the beginning of the piece, Horton appeals to the failure of his opponent’s position rather than bolstering his own. But each case must stand on its own merits.
Horton does agree that God is monstrous in a view in which he authors sin or and says he is also monstrous in a view in which he permits sin without a purpose. But he points to a third possibility: he is not monstrous if he permits sin with a purpose. This third option is central to the article, but he elaborates only a little: because God “had already determined why he would permit it and how he has decided to overcome it for his glory and our good” it makes all the difference. So it all seems to hang on whether doing it for “his glory and our good” is enough to put away the charge of being morally monstrous. This, of course, is the ancient argument, which has failed to convince many. However, I did appreciate that Horton characterized the conclusion not as satisfying to our moral and reasonable senses but merely as “our only consolation”.
One last thing… the article deals in part with the difference between a divine decree and divine permission. I have to confess I myself have never yet grasped some of the distinctions. R.C.Sproul seems to anticipate – and compound — my general confusion when he writes: “What God permits, he decrees to permit”! In this piece, Horton writes: “There is indeed a trail of hyper-Calvinism on the fringes of Augustinian Christianity that turns God’s decree to permit into a decree to accomplish or bring about.” But elswhere Horton writes: ““…if God foreknows everything from eternity, including our free acts, then these acts are certain to come to pass. Foreknowledge entails predestination…” And of course the WCF has “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.” And so forth. It doesn’t make sense to me. So, maybe I’m just a slow learner; or maybe this is another case of “shrouded in mystery”, etc; or maybe it doesn’t really hold together. My only point is that for someone like me it could have been presented in a clearer, easier-to-follow fashion.
CES
September 29th, 2012 at 4:37 am
[...] Calvinism make God a moral monster? Read more from Justin about the setting behind this video. Also read Michael Horton’s answer to the question, given in response to Roger [...]
October 22nd, 2012 at 7:12 pm
Calivinism is riddled with scriptural difficulty and in the end has to appeal to extra Biblical assertions to give some credibility to their arguments. By the way, ‘foreknowledge’ in the scripture is simply ‘knowing someone previously’. The reference to foreknowledge in scripture is a reference to the patriarchs Abraham, Issac and Jacob as in 1 Peter 1:1-2. The ‘elect’, ‘chosen’, ‘choice’ are physical Israel. We could go on but……..
October 23rd, 2012 at 3:16 am
Foreknowledge is not ” simply ‘knowing someone previously.” Most serious Bible scholars understand the use of words knowledge/knowing, especially when speaking of God means much more than that.
November 3rd, 2012 at 2:04 pm
There are so many things one could say. One thing is that Calvinists and Arminians alike misunderstand ‘foreknowledge’ because fundamentally they have deconstructed (either purposefully or inadvertently – the latter I think)the Jewish nature of the scriptures in favour of an existentialist view. Namely, that everything that is said in scripture has some direct reference to ‘me’. Foreknowledge in scriputre has nothing to do with some ‘spooky’ idea that God either knows or does not know the future. It has to do with the patriarchs who god ‘knew before’ in an intimate manner. So in, for instance, 1 Peter 1:1-2 which is butchered in most popular ‘translations’ (more paraphrased I think)’foreknowledge’ has directly to do with the Jewish exiles of the diaspora of the first century not gentiles like you and me. What is according to the foreknowledge of God here is ‘grace and peace be multiplied to you’(the Jews)as it was to the patriarchs. Fundamentally, too many Protestants have no real grounding in the original language and accept crummy interpretations found in many of the popular versions of the Bible.
November 7th, 2012 at 6:35 am
Problems can intractable because (1) either there is not enough time in the universe to determine a solution with the resources available to us (for example, the tower of Hanoi with 128 disks), or (2) a proof is theoretically impossible (ref. Goedel). How unsatisfying! Besides, it’s fun to twiddle our minds on the problems in the process of determining that they are intractable.
When Horton says that “That God’s sovereignty and human responsibility are true, no serious student of Scripture can deny. How they can be true is beyond our capacity to understand,” I’m assuming that he is talking about a form of responsibility that involves (limited) libertarian free will. (I can figure it out if it’s just compatibilist, so presumably Horton could too.) I think he is on the verge of saying the problem appears to be intractable.
I might be sympathetic to the reviewer who claimed this was just a way to affirm the irrational if the corresponding problems related to causal determinism and free will were solvable in the context of naturalism, but I’ve never seen a good solution there either. Denying free will destroys epistemology, but there is not a good way to express the mechanism behind free choice without flirting with “arbitrary”.
Here are some other interesting problems related to causality in the natural world:
- Language: The language we use to describe causality in the natural world (if A happens, then B will happen) is suspiciously like the language that we use to describe logial necessity (if A is true, then B is true). Does this skew our concept of what natural causality is? for example, does it tempt us to view A and B as discrete and isolated?
- Causal sets: Above the level of particle physics, a single cause A never directly causes a single event B. Rather, sets of causes produce sets of results, and for most, if not all, practical attempts to fully charactize what caused a particular result, the problem of determining the causal set is intractable. Consider the following problem – pick the 30 ft.+ high maple tree of your choice in Boston and determine exactly in what order the leaves will fall off the tree next fall. Hard natural determinism would assert this is possible, but it is intuitively intractable because of the complexity of the causal set. Furthermore, attempts to take measurements that might assist in the determination would purturb the causal set – if so, then the problem is theoretically intractable as well.
- State vs. Process. Assume that if state A obtains, then state B will obtain. Presumably there are some intermediate states that represent intermediate causal sets between A and B. Split the time indefinately. You start to converge on something that looks like a causal process rather than a series of states. Almost all descriptions of causality are state based. Why?
- Time. Causal descriptions are nearly always in the context of time. Physics has some interesting things to say about time and it’s relationship to the natural world.
- Quantum randomness. While I tend to discount quantum randomness as a characteristic of a mathematical model rather than inherent in the reality it represents, it prompts interesting questions. I put it last because I think it is the least interesting, but also to emphasize that the usual alternative to causation is randomness.
Until I understand more about causality, I’m not sure I could understand more how free will could purturb it without being random. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe in free will, especially if not believing in free will renders the act of thinking about causality moot (in a naturalistic context). I think we are flirting with an intractable problem, but I sure admire a God who groks all of the details.
So much for a discussion of natural determinism. What happens when you add determinism by decree (e.g. apart from natural determinism)? Does it affect the epistemological issues? How does it interact with natural causation?
See, there is so much fun you can have on this topic without resorting to the Calvanist/Arminian stereotypes. Rather than retrenching into the categories of the traditional debate, why not exercise a little creativity and twiddle yor minds on some new ideas for a while. Even if you find them to be dead ends, you’ll have learned something about the bigger topic when you are done.
At any rate, after my forays into the above topics, along with Molinism, Pantinga’s God, Freedom, and Evil, and Olsen’s causing it backwards, I’m quite content to consider the problem intractable pending more data, and agree that “That God’s sovereignty and human responsibility are true, no serious student of Scripture can deny. How they can be true is beyond our capacity to understand.”
In the meantime, I shall try to find ways to make a positive difference in the world. Peace and grace to all of the Calvanist, Arminian, and other brothers and sisters in Christ who have posted. Love one another.
November 7th, 2012 at 7:28 am
[...] with His will and still allow people to make choices according to their will. Michael Horton argues that those holding to LFW have the same problem as Calvinists when it comes to dealing with this tension. Why? Because [...]