Reformed and Charismatic?
Thanks for the healthy debate and interaction on the previous post. Obviously, those who believe that miraculous prophecy continues after the apostolic age should not be lumped together with radical movements like the New Apostolic Reformation. Nevertheless, it does provide an occasion to think carefully about the compatibility of Reformation theology with Charismatic emphases. This is especially the case when there have been renewed calls for a “Reformed Charismatic” synthesis in our own circles.
I’ve never been willing to die on the hill of cessationism: that is, the belief that the miraculous gifts such as prophecy, healing, and tongues have ceased. I’m still not. Nevertheless, I am convinced that non-cessationism is neither exegetically sound nor historically compatible with Reformed theology. Furthermore, the surprisingly widespread popularity of more radical views of ongoing sign-gifts, coupled with political ambition, pushes me into the unpleasant position of challenging the views even of far sounder brothers with whom I agree on so many important points.
As a Charismatic Calvinist, Wayne Grudem has been used by God to bring the doctrines of grace to many who would likely not have encountered these truths otherwise. I have immense respect for his clear defense of many cardinal doctrines of Christianity. At the same time, the Calvinism-Charismatic bridge goes in both directions and his view of continuing prophecy has contributed to a curious hybrid that in my view cannot survive in the long run. Reformed theology is a system—not one imposed on Scripture, but one that arises from the self-consistent Word of God.
Mark Driscoll, a student of Grudem’s, has recently claimed to have regular visions of the sinful—usually sexual—behavior of people he encounters. “I see things,” he says, although the gift he describes is nowhere exhibited even in the apostolic era. Also posted on his Mars Hill website is a critique of cessationism as “modernistic worldliness,” lumping this view with deism and atheism. “Functional cessationism is really about the mind, but functional charismatic theology is really about the heart.” He concludes with a plea: “…you Reformed guys, especially you who are more Presbyterian, you tend to ignore the Holy Spirit and attribute everything the Spirit does to the gospel.” Sovereign Grace Ministries, led until recently by C. J. Mahaney, has also followed Grudem’s path toward a synthesis of Calvinistic and Charismatic emphases.
There is much to admire in these men and their labors. I am not targeting these friends and brothers, but pleading with them—and with all of us—to rediscover the ordinary means of grace, ordinary ministry, ordinary offices, and to long for a genuine revival: that is, a surprising blessing of God on his ordinary ministry in our day. The false choice between head and heart, the Spirit and the Word, has been a perennial polemic of the radical wing of Protestantism. Mark Driscoll’s plea above reveals that dangerous separation of the Spirit from his Word. Only by assuming such a cleavage can one argue that Reformed theology ignores the Holy Spirit.
We have had enough “apostles,” “prophets,” and “Moses-model” leaders who build ministries around their own gifts. We need to recover the beauty of Christ alone upon his throne as the Priest-King of his church, exercising his ministry by his Spirit through preaching, sacrament, and discipline in mutually accountable communion with the wider body of Christ. Reformed theology is not just the “five points” and “sovereign grace,” but a rich, full, and systematic confession. It’s a human and therefore fallible attempt to wrestle with the whole counsel of God—in both doctrine and practice, soteriology and ecclesiology. Until we rediscover this richness, “Reformed” will mean “whatever my leader or circle believes.”
Of course, the biblical case that must be made cannot be made well in this brief space. However, I’ll focus on the question of whether the gifts of prophet and apostle have ceased. In Ephesians 4:7-16, the apostle says that offices prophets and apostles as well as pastors, teachers, and evangelists are gifts of his heavenly ascension.
Against both Rome and the radical Anabaptists, the Reformers argued that prophet and apostle are extraordinary offices, for a foundation-laying era. They are sent at key moments in redemptive history, and their writings are added to the canon of Scripture. Like the distinction between a nation’s constitution and its courts, the biblical canon is qualitatively distinct from ecclesiastical interpretation. The former is magisterial (normative), while the latter is ministerial (interpretive).
Particularly in the wake of the Pentecostal and charismatic movements, this question has divided Christians into two camps: cessationists (believing that the gifts of healing, prophecy, and tongues have ceased) and non-cessationists. Non-cessationists find no exegetical reason to distinguish some of these gifts and offices from others in terms of their perpetuity. However, cessationists hold that the New Testament itself makes a distinction between the foundation-laying era of the apostles and the era of building the church on their completed foundation (1 Cor 3:10-11). Although the New Testament establishes the offices of pastors/teachers, elders, and deacons, it does not establish perpetual prophetic or apostolic offices with their attendant sign-gifts. With this in mind, we must examine each gift in question.
Paul treats prophecy (prophēteia) as preaching, which although illumined by the Spirit is (unlike the scriptures) un-inspired and therefore must be tested (1 Cor 12:29; 1 Thes 5:19-21). At Pentecost, the gift of tongues was a Spirit-given ability to proclaim the gospel in languages that one had not been taught. The diverse crowd of visitors to Jerusalem for the feast asked, “And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?” (Ac 2:8). We should therefore understand “tongues” as synonymous with natural languages, which some were miraculously gifted to speak and others to interpret. This served not only as a sign that Christ’s universal kingdom has dawned but as a practical way of disseminating the gospel from Jerusalem to the ends of the earth. None of these gifts was given for the personal edification of believers alone, but for the spread of the gospel and the maturity of the saints in that Word.
Similarly, the gift of healing was a sign that Christ’s kingdom had arrived, bringing a preview of the consummation in all of its fullness at the end of the age. Yet signs always cluster in the Bible around significant turning-points in redemptive history. Like the temporary prophesying of the elders in Moses’ day, the extraordinary gifts of signs and wonders are given to validate the sacred ministry of human ambassadors. Once that ministry is validated, it no longer requires further confirmation. (For an excellent treatment of this topic, see Richard B. Gaffin, Jr., Perspectives on Pentecost (P & R, 1979), especially 94-95, in relation to Wayne Grudem’s contention that “prophets and apostles” in 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 refer to the same group.) It would seem, then, that the gift of prophets and apostles (along with the gifts of miracles, prophecy, and tongues) was given but fulfilled its foundation-laying function. Just as Paul’s understudy Timothy is an ordinary minister, we find no evidence that his ministry was attended by extraordinary signs and wonders.
Some theologians, such as Wayne Grudem, recognize that the office of apostle has ceased, but are “unsure if this question” of the cessation of spiritual gifts “can be decided from Scripture.” [This and following Gruden quotes from his Systematic Theology, 906-912, 1031; cf. Wayne Grudem, The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament Today (Westchester, IL: Crossway, 1988), 226-252.]
With Grudem I agree that 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, which speaks of prophecies and tongues passing away “when the perfect comes,” is inconclusive. Paul is most likely referring to the consummation, when there will be no need for faith and hope and all that will endure into eternity is love (v 13).
However, I do not find Grudem’s case for continuing prophecy persuasive. He clearly distinguishes prophecy today from the prophecy that delivered the sacred oracles of Holy Scripture. This is both the strength and the weakness of his position. Grudem believes that the kind of prophecy that is ongoing in the church is distinguished from preaching and teaching by being “a spontaneous ‘revelation’ from God….” (Grudem, Systematic Theology, 1058)
So the distinction is quite clear: if a message is the result of conscious reflection on the text of Scripture, containing interpretation of the text and application to life, then it is (in New Testament terms) a teaching. But if a message is the report of something God brings suddenly to mind, then it is a prophecy. (Grudem, Systematic Theology, 1058)
In my view, this interpretation introduces a definition of prophecy that is not consistent with its practice in the apostolic church. Nowhere is prophecy distinguished by its spontaneous quality. Furthermore, in spite of his salutary caution against raising such prophecies to the level of Scripture, this interpretation still raises the question as to whether the Spirit issues new revelations that are not already communicated in Scripture. If prophecy is defined simply as Spirit-given insight into Scripture, then is this not synonymous with preaching?
Today, the Spirit validates this ordinary ministry of the gospel through preaching and sacrament: the signs and wonders that Christ instituted to confirm his Word. If it is true that the apostles understood their work to be an extraordinary ministry of foundation-laying and their miraculous signs as its validation, then “no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ….If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward” (1 Cor 3:11, 14, emphasis added).
While living stones are continually being added to the temple, the edifice itself is “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone” (Eph 2:20). As the person and work of the head is distinct from that of its members, the foundation-laying ministry of the apostles is different from the “up-building” ministry of their successors.
Where apostolic preaching became Scripture, our proclamation, faith, and practice stand in continuity with the apostles to the extent that they conform to that rule. To understand Scripture as canon, within its Ancient Near Eastern treaty background, is to recognize that, like the redemptive work to which it testifies, it cannot be revised by addition or subtraction (Dt 4:2; Rev 22:18-19). While interpretations are always subject to change, the constitution has been given once and for all.
Similarly, the canon that witnesses to Jesus is the covenant that he ratified in his self-sacrifice. In its appeal to this canon and its practice of its stipulated rites, the church participates in the heavenly reality as servant rather than Lord of the covenant. Just as Jesus-history is qualitatively distinct from our own, the apostolic canon is qualitatively distinct from the subsequent tradition (or preaching) that interprets it. One is magisterial, the other ministerial. Just as the church does not extend or complete the work of redemption but receives, interprets, and proclaims it, the church does not extent or complete revelation. The interim between Christ’s advents is not an era of writing new chapters in the history of redemption. Rather, it is a period in which the Spirit equips us for the mission between Acts and the Apocalypse—right in the middle of the era of the ordinary ministry with its new covenant canon. Just as the church cannot extend the incarnation or complete Christ’s atoning work, it cannot repeat Pentecost or prolong the extraordinary ministry of the apostles, but must instead receive this same word and Spirit for its ordinary ministry in this time between the times.



August 22nd, 2011 at 1:33 pm
I wish I had read this ten years ago. It would have spared me alot of confussion.
August 22nd, 2011 at 2:51 pm
Dr. Horton! You’re the man.
A couple questions: Isn’t it true that in 1Cor 3.10 Paul is referencing the foundation he’d laid in a specific locale (or locales)? His work was to establish local churches on a firm foundation of the gospel, and doesn’t this work continue today as we continue to do the work of planting new gospel communities?
The way I see it, Ephesians 4 describes the leaders God has given to do the pioneering work of establishing new Christian communities. I’m assuming you’d agree that we have not yet fulfilled the call to make disciples of all nations. If that’s true then it would make sense that these leaders will be needed for the building up of the church until the Lord returns or until all people have been reached with the gospel, whichever comes first.
I suspect there are people in the church who may be gifted apostolically or prophetically but they are not using their gifts to expand and build up the church as described in the NT. Why? Because I believe, functionally speaking, we’ve collapsed the 5-fold gifting in Eph 4 into one office, the pastor, and we foolishly expect our pastors to fulfill all those roles. No wonder so many get burned out so quickly!
Well, just some thoughts. Thanks for creating a forum for diving into such important subjects.
August 22nd, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Funny that I would have identified as a charismatic before Driscol’s post but now after all the clarity of all the responses (like this one) I find myself increasingly on the cessationist side. Another reason I have been questioning is the trash that keeps getting published as Christian. It seems every author has seen heaven or has a word that has been given by Christ. Thank you again for your clarity on subjects like this.
August 22nd, 2011 at 3:35 pm
I just removed my family from a Reformed Charismatic church for the same reasons discussed in the article.I can’t see these two theological systems coinciding without serious confusion resulting. I grew up in a charismatic church, and now understand what I “experienced” was not biblical.Thanks to pastors like John MacArthur, I have a greater understanding of the charismatic movement.I see harm in any movement in the church that asserts extra-biblical doctrine.
August 22nd, 2011 at 4:39 pm
it appears our good brother is equating prophecy with preaching. which would be unfortunate b/c in 1 corinthians speaks about women prophecying and the only advice he gives is “make sure your head is covered” the obvious implication is that women were prophecying in the local church, so if we’re going to say that prophecy is simply teaching then we’ve got an airtight argument for egalitarianism. furthermore in chap 14 the corinthians are told that although they desire the gift of tongues he’d rather them ALL to prophecy. again james tells us all not to desire to be teachers, but here is paul telling all the believers in the church to desire the gift of prophecy. preaching/teaching/prophecy in the new T are obviously not the same thing
August 22nd, 2011 at 4:51 pm
The problem here is what’s missing. In the 70s there was a (mainly middle class) neo-Pentecostal revival by people like Jack Hayford who held very Pentecostal services but had an excellent teaching of a more Reformation view of justification and sanctification. In other words, they didn’t blur them and teach you would lose your salvation if you blinked wrong. The teaching was exegetical and cross sentered. Revelation was not put above Scripture. Sadly, today, its more difficult to find a Pentecostal church that isn’t dead. Then there’s the Charismatic movement, heavily influenced by the Vineyard which morphed into the NAR Third-Wave Charismatic nonsense. TBN went from having very good and often academic Pentecostals and Charismatics on their Praise the Lord program when they started in teh late 70s to today’s clown show with the clown acts. No wonder you guys think we are all crazy. I wish that the Pentecostals (and a few Charismatics) that are “sane” could sit down with you and have a great theological conversation without the occultism, clown acts and over all goofiness and heresy.
August 22nd, 2011 at 5:11 pm
I found your article a mix of incomplete exegesis, a strawman example in Mark Driscoll and anemic arguments from silence. Additionally, I find it divisive, undeserved, unnecessary and a-historical to deny the “reformed” label to many ‘”reformed charismatics”. I hope your readers will study more broadly before making up their minds.
August 22nd, 2011 at 5:36 pm
[...] Reformed and Charismatic? – White Horse Inn Blog [...]
August 22nd, 2011 at 5:41 pm
Palmer Robinson’s book helped lead me out of SGM… it’s called The Final Word. Good stuff and he interacts with Grudem. Thanks for the article!
August 22nd, 2011 at 7:31 pm
So, Dr. Horton, may I ask you kindly sir to watch this very short video of Dr. John Piper: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgs38_x1XJg&feature=player_embedded
If men of God such as Dr. John Piper, Dr. Sam Storms, Dr. Wayne Grudem and many others read your article and still do not immediately repent and see things exactly as you do in this area, will you renounce them as being a genuine part of the reformed community? Is that where things are headed with all this sir?
August 22nd, 2011 at 8:41 pm
[...] Horton argues for some careful thinking about the fusion of charismatic practices and Reformed theology in a number of contemporary settings. I generally concur. I think I’d like a bit more [...]
August 23rd, 2011 at 12:26 am
This was an interesting read Dr. Horton. What do you make of the charismatic reports of the Scottish Reformation? The “Scot’s Worthies” reports prophecies, the dead being raised and quite a few other phenomenal things done by great saints such as John Knox, George Wishart, Samuel Rutherford, Alexander Pieden (sp?), and a fee more I believe.
I am also curious as to what you make of Paul’s own commands to “eagerly desire Spiritual gifts, but most of all that you should prophesy” and to “forbid not to speak in tongues?”. His descriptions of tongues also seems to allow for a function of tongues which is distinct from evangelism even if one grants that this is what is happening in Acts 2. I say that because it has long seemed to me that if read literally it seems that the miracle may very well be in the ears and minds of the hearers as much as the mouths of the Apostles.
August 23rd, 2011 at 3:42 am
I think it’s unfair to suggest that Mark Driscoll “recently claimed” when the talk was from 2008, or to say that they are “usually sexual”, when he has shared on a number of occasions about a number of different incidents, most of which (to my recollection) were not sexual in nature. Equally, I suspect he would describe the gift as synonymous with a “word of knowledge”, which _is_ a scriptural term.
Additionally, you talk about tongues, but focus only on Pentecost. If tongues were merely human language, and meant to be directly understood, then why does Paul talk about speaking in the ‘tongues of men and angels’, and advise the Corinthians not to speak so much in tongues because people won’t understand?
Lastly, you state “Furthermore, in spite of his salutary caution against raising such prophecies to the level of Scripture, this interpretation still raises the question as to whether the Spirit issues new revelations that are not already communicated in Scripture. If prophecy is defined simply as Spirit-given insight into Scripture, then is this not synonymous with preaching?” but I fail to see how this is reflects properly on either the nature of prophecy in cases such as Agabus, or the full nature of preaching.
August 23rd, 2011 at 4:23 am
Prophecy is not equal with scripture. See Acts 21:9. The daughters of Phillip could not have had a scribe following them around and recording every word they prophecied as scripture.
August 23rd, 2011 at 4:30 am
I wish I had read this before listening to Mark Driscoll’s visions.
August 23rd, 2011 at 5:55 am
[...] Reformed and Charismatic? Aug.22, 2011 by Dr. Michael Horton [...]
August 23rd, 2011 at 6:14 am
Funny, I’m writing about a similar topic on my blog this week and have really enjoyed digging into your book, The Christian Faith. I plan on quoting some excerpts from chapter four. You supply a much bigger picture of God’s Word than the “mystical suggestions” that many want to equate with revelation. I love all of your writings on God’s Word as “Divine Peosis,” creating what it speaks. When we get a better understanding of God’s Word, we become more humble about our own claims.
August 23rd, 2011 at 6:20 am
Well said Dr.Horton. The problem always comes when you challenge someone concerning these issues. I have been told I doubt,lack faith and have put God in a box , which is not true at all. Driscoll’s so called ability to see things is highly questionable to my mind when examined by scripture but if the ordinary means of grace are not enough for people , they will look to the more “amazing”. At the heart of the matter to me is the sufficiency of the word.
August 23rd, 2011 at 7:03 am
Is there a typo in the second paragraph? Is Dr. Horton referencing cessationism as “neither exegetically sound nor historically compatible with Reformed theology?”
August 23rd, 2011 at 7:21 am
[...] Michael Horton writes…. I’ve never been willing to die on the hill of cessationism: that is, the belief that the miraculous gifts such as prophecy, healing, and tongues have ceased. I’m still not. Nevertheless, I am convinced that this position is neither exegetically sound nor historically compatible with Reformed theology. Furthermore, the surprisingly widespread popularity of more radical views of ongoing sign-gifts, coupled with political ambition, pushes me into the unpleasant position of challenging the views even of far sounder brothers with whom I agree on so many important points. [...]
August 23rd, 2011 at 7:33 am
well top marks for this ,,i spent 6 years in Charismatic?”type church i loved it in that one would never fall asleep, never, we sing lots of songs,, clap hands till the blood came out,, danced and had a loving time,, what the problem was in contol by the pastor was lacking, instead of praising,,christ we praised the holy spirit,begging him to rain power,, and more power,, some services,, maybe christ got a little bit,, most of the time it was , out of control, people allowed to jump up and give a message ,,and we were to never to doubt ,,it WAS from GOD,people everywhere speaking in tongues ,, it was sad ,,only in the baptist church did the word get preached, and given,,so i moved to this church,, why,, to hear the word get preached,, gifts, in the this type of church are causing lots of confussion,,many false teachers hide away and teach lies+half-truths, then beg for money and more money,,to get rich,, with lots of fun,, never truth of the word,,god bless
August 23rd, 2011 at 7:34 am
I was very confused at the beginning when you wrote:
“I’ve never been willing to die on the hill of cessationism: that is, the belief that the miraculous gifts such as prophecy, healing, and tongues have ceased. I’m still not. Nevertheless, I am convinced that this position is neither exegetically sound nor historically compatible with Reformed theology. ”
Because it seemed like you were saying that “cessationism” was neither exegetically sound nor historically compatible with Reformed theology. But the “this position” you were referring to is “Reformed Charismatic”.
Correct?
August 23rd, 2011 at 7:37 am
Kevin and Brian – Mike just asked to have the second paragraph edited to read, “Nevertheless, I am convinced that
this positionnon-cessationism is neither exegetically sound nor historically compatible with Reformed theology.”August 23rd, 2011 at 7:38 am
I am Presbyterian, but I haven’t shed all of my Charismatic history (at least not yet). If you watch me, you wouldn’t every guess that I am no a cessationist.
I have two points regarding this article:
1. I think maybe the topic of healing seems to be out of place with the thrust of the article. Revelation from God, prophecy, the canon of scripture all have to do with tongues and prophecy, but maybe the argument about miraculous healings would be better served on its own.
2. More importantly, I have not ever had anyone successfully convince me that the “woman at the well” type of revelation is the same kind of revelation that became canon. Personally, I have NEVER accepted the idea that contemporary revelation from God would be on par with scripture. Instead, I was always taught to test it against scripture, for that is our ruling stick.
But where is the argument that says when you meet someone at a bus stop, God doesn’t any longer reveal things to a person to use as a personalized tool for sharing the Gospel and leading to Christ? I don’t see why that has to be considered “canon” and therefore it can’t happen anymore. If you can argue strongly from the scripture that indeed this type of revelation just can’t happen anymore today, then you might go a long way in convincing people like me of cessationism.
kazoo
August 23rd, 2011 at 7:48 am
Yawn…I will stick to John G Lake, Smith Wigglesworth – lol
August 23rd, 2011 at 8:35 am
What I find interesting is that there is no Scriptural support for cessationism. I do not know what the right answer is, but the bottom line support I see in Mr. Horton’s argument is the “completed canon argument” which is not truly Scriptural support but merely an extrapolation and accordingly, no one should teach it as truth but merely helpful guidance. ( or maybe not so helpful if it’s wrong ). Why do we have such a problem with saying “I don’t know if the gift of prophesy continued because I’m not quite sure what you mean by prophesy?” Perhaps it isn’t all or nothing and perhaps just because it doesn’t happen now doesn’t mean it can’t happen, especially when Scripture doesn’t disclose a decree of God to that effect. Preventing abuse is not a good lens for interpreting Scripture.
August 23rd, 2011 at 8:48 am
Great discussion! Could it be that the formal office of Prophet has been fulfilled and abrogated while the spiritual gift of prophesy (especially as Grudem defines “the report of something God brings suddenly to mind”)remains a legitimate means for Christ to communicate with His people? I’m not referencing the wacky stuff people say is “from God”, but stuff that is not contrary to Scripture in either precept or principle.
Here’s a can of worms that I’d like to open. How do we understand reports from various people in unreached people groups who claim to have dreams and visions directly related to the gospel and their need of Jesus, prior to ever even hearing His Name or having any exposure to the gospel whatsoever?
Fun stuff, thanks for the forum to share ideas! Let’s always remember though, that we are discussing secondary things at best, and though all truth is important, the Gospel is of utmost importance! “Walking in love” (Rom 14:15) in secondary things best demonstrates the gospel of grace.
August 23rd, 2011 at 8:48 am
Mr. Samson, sir, I’d be happy to say without reservation that Grudem, Piper, et al. are not part of any “reformed” community that I know of. They do not adhere to any of the historic confessions. There’s alot more to being reformed that holding to the five points.
August 23rd, 2011 at 8:57 am
The same man who wrote Romans 9-11 also said “I speak in tongues more than you all.”
Whether or not the gifts are in operation today is one matter, but certainly there was no tension whatsoever between reformed theology and charismatic practice in the first decades of the church. That’s just a fact. Using today’s terms anachronistically, the Apostle Paul was a Reformed charismatic. The question now is “would he be so today?” It is more than ok to ask that question, but it is not ok to divide over how someone answers that question.
My concern is the big picture here – that to really start pushing this, it will inevitably bring a huge and very unnecessary division in the reformed camp. Charismatics wont be welcome at the reformed conferences anymore (and thousands of them do attend, believe me), either as speakers or even as people who attend – and if they do attend, they will be made to feel like total outsiders. That’s the only outcome, if things are pushed too far.
Reformed charismatics such as John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Sam Storms and others have brought thousands of people into the reformed camp – there’s no doubt of that – and to throw them all under the bus would be a HUGE mistake.
This issue is NOT something that would ever cause me to break fellowship — I do so with anyone who bends the knee at the cross. It’s ok to disagree. It’s ok to dialogue. But, to promote separation is not ok. And, that’s what this kind of article does…
August 23rd, 2011 at 9:08 am
[...] Reformed and Charismatic? Michael Horton offers some thoughts. Felt timely for me after getting “grilled” by a recent guest to the island who describes himself as charismatic. It was a good grilling, but I’ll have to think about whether to invite him back or not. If he had the gift of prophecy, he’d already know Anyway, Mike offers a charitable, clear, and in my opinion compelling look at the historic position on the miraculous sign gifts. What often gets lost in these discussions is that most everyone is a “cessationist” and most everyone is a “continuationist.” Nearly everyone in the pale of orthodoxy believes the apostolic office and gift has ceased, and that there are no current prophets speaking things on par with Scripture. That’s a degree of cessationism. But no one disputes the continuation of certain gifts, pastor-teacher, administration, helps, and so on. The discussion really revolves around what to think about certain sign gifts like tongues. Horton’s discussion covers familiar ground but reminds us of some important historical distinctions. Categories: Apostle Paul, Around the Blog [...]
August 23rd, 2011 at 9:11 am
If you are one of the charismatic readers of this article and share some of the critical questions put forth in the comment chain, I’d like to second Dr. Horton’s recommendation of Gaffin’s book: Richard B. Gaffin, Jr., Perspectives on Pentecost (P & R, 1979). I am preaching through Pentecost and Acts and just re-read this volume and found it to be a clear, short, and insightful treatment of the issues.
As Horton says, this isn’t the forum to exegetically defend his position. Do yourself a favor, pick up Gaffin and read it. It will be time well spent. He makes a patient and thorough exegetical argument for Horton’s position, in a very accessible and readable way.
August 23rd, 2011 at 9:16 am
It is indeed interesting that R.C. Sproul, Jr wrote this today – and I agree 100%:
It is a sure sign that sin messes things up that we keep watching the same boxing match over and over again, between truth and unity. Both sides, of course, insist that they have a deep and abiding love for the other. They shake hands in the center of the ring, go back to their corners, wait for the bell and come out ready to destroy the one they love. In the stands we stand, screaming ourselves hoarse in defense of our favorite.
Until recently unity has been on a hot streak. Charismatics, dispensationalists, YRR, and old school Reformed folk, post-mills and a-mils have managed to work together for the gospel. Blogs and conferences, magazines and books have born much fruit from cross-pollinating. We discovered that our brothers on the other side of this aisle or that do not actually have horns. We remembered that the beauty of what unites us is not only more important, but more potent than the nuances that divide us.
But we should never count out truth, or at least our own version of it. Though it was on the ropes, like Rocky in the last few rounds, truth has shown a rare ability to take a punch, and come back strong. It has moved well past highlighting what separates charismatics from dispensationalists and this Reformed group from that, and has now got each camp engaged in its own civil war. Cessationism versus continuationism, neckties versus t-shirts, beer versus teetotalism have sparked fires that rage inside our own worlds.
So what do we do? Can we get truth and unity to kiss and make up? Only if Christians learn to grow up. We need to not only learn to distinguish between primary and secondary doctrines/practices, we need to learn to value them accurately. Can we both agree that being wrong on baptism is not a damnable heresy, and also affirm that it is an issue that matters? Can I seek to correct my Baptist brothers in a way that speaks to them as brothers who are wrong on an important issue? And can I in turn hear with grace my Baptist brothers as they lovingly seek to correct my error on the issue? Can I be concerned that my charismatic brother is leaving open the door for false prophecy and at the same time understand that he is concerned that I am boxing in the Holy Spirit?
I have an opinion on virtually every issue that is being argued on the internet. I think some positions being espoused are good, sound, biblical. I think others are fallacious, dangerous, and unbiblical. I know that whatever the Bible teaches, that is what’s right and true. And I know the Bible teaches that I am often wrong. It is not Rodney King that asks if we can all get along. It is Jesus asking, in His high priestly prayer (John 17). He is the Truth, and He calls us to unity. That comes in reflecting His character. He, even when He corrects us, is for us. He, even when we are wrong, loves us perfectly. He is lowly in spirit and will not break a bruised reed.
We will not change until we choose our heroes not by how cogently or fiercely they defend our position on this issue or that, but by how much they reflect the grace of Christ whatever their position.
August 23rd, 2011 at 9:23 am
I have read Gaffin in the book that takes 4 views and I found it to be entirely unconvincing. I still want to know why we ignore 1 Corinthians 13 which gives us a very precise chronology for when prophecy (i.e. “propheteo”) ends. It is bizarre to me that we ignore that in favor of unique interpretations or eisegesis. We know when prophecy ends and it is not in the 1st Century as so many desperately want to believe based upon their experiences.
August 23rd, 2011 at 9:23 am
Great article,
I and family just left a reformed Charismatic church for this issue. Just a couple points where I think that Mr. Horton is not correct on. 1st he says Paul treats prophecy (prophēteia) as preaching. The NT prophets receieved direct revelation. That’s different from preaching and its also why they were foundational offices. The office of prophet now may be the preacher – but they expound what has been revealed while the NT prophet received and spoke directly from God. Not so the preacher. 2nd – true prophets were inspired and could say “thus says the Holy Spirit” (as Agabus does) – we cannot say that now and Wayne G knows this. The reason Paul says to test the prophecies isn’t because NT true prophecy was uninspired – it is because there were false prophets in the churches.
August 23rd, 2011 at 9:34 am
I agree with what Brad said… Not sure why anyone would refer to Mr. Piper, Mr. Grudem, etc. as “Reformed”. This is an excellent discussion and one that needs to be had.
August 23rd, 2011 at 9:42 am
[...] almost alway appreciate Mike Horton. He’s helped shape my thinking probably for two decades. Here he deals with the issue of extra-biblical revelation from the perspective of those of us who are [...]
August 23rd, 2011 at 9:52 am
So what do you ladies and gentlemen do with the Scottish Reformers who received direct revelation and saw incredibly “supernatural” (for lack of a more precise word) things happen?
August 23rd, 2011 at 10:08 am
Mark,
If Horton is consistent – then John Knox was not reformed enough! How crazy is that!!!!
August 23rd, 2011 at 10:14 am
What should Christians in America do with the knowledge that the overwhelming majority of non-catholic Christians across the globe (Asia, South America, Africa) are Charismatic. Some pastors who travel internationally tell me they know of almost no churches that hold to cessationalism.
August 23rd, 2011 at 10:27 am
oh no!!! Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress – I guess we have got to throw that book out now too. Bunyan dreamed a dream. Non-cessationist poison!!
Where do we stop?
August 23rd, 2011 at 11:09 am
I do not think Horton is being unnecessarily divisive here. He is very clear to affirm that he holds the men who’s positions he challenges as dear brothers in the faith. My personal opinion is that the post was by and large written with a gracious tone, and that it reflects a good combination of both unity (which I am sure he has with men like Grudem!) and friendly challenging. We should not just give up on trying to make our views more biblical because that might be viewed as divisive. As someone who would consider himself a “Reformed Charismatic” (reformed obviously taking the smaller meaning of 5 point Calvinist here) I felt challenged and encouraged by this post, and not attacked.
August 23rd, 2011 at 11:23 am
I think the case for or against the charismatic position cannot definitely be made from the Bible. I’m happy to accept it is a grey area. However, the historical view has always been cessationist, at least before pentecostalism appeared on the scene.
However, we’re told to test the spirits, and the claims of charismatics and pentecostals do not stack up. Tongues has been shown to be unstructured gibberish that is psychological in origin and prophecies that come to pass are notable by their absence. So it seems far more likely that charismatics are deluded and cessationism is the right approach.
August 23rd, 2011 at 11:38 am
Pete, you analysis is painfully simplistic and ignores a host of evidence from the entire church age that the gifts were oftentimes in operation and not rejected throughout the church age as you claim. What do you make of the many claims of supernatural revelation from the Scottish Reformation? Do we choose to consider many of the great Scottish reformers to be “deluded?”
August 23rd, 2011 at 12:25 pm
Given that the gifts were Scripturally established and, as one writer has said, the gift of prophesy would end when the perfect has come, is it not incumbent upon anyone claiming cessation to establish clearly by Scripture that something has changed? I acknowledge abuse, but that isn’t a foundation for cessation but a charge of sin. Reformed tradition aside, what does Scripture say. Otherwise, division formed by tradition is an attmept to destroy the temple of God ( his church ). Not a good thing if I read Paul in Corinthians correctly. I have never claimed any of the spectacular gifts nor seen them so my point of view is strictly to focus on the Word.
August 23rd, 2011 at 12:31 pm
John Piper:
“What time is referred to when Paul says, “Prophecies . . . will pass away.” Has it already passed away or will it pass away at some future time?
The next two verses (9-10) give the reason for why prophecies and knowledge will pass away: “For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect (literally: For we know in part and we prophesy in part); but when the perfect (or: mature, complete) comes, the imperfect (or: partial) will pass away.” So the reason prophecies will pass away is that a time is coming when the partiality and incompleteness of the gift of prophecy will be replaced by perfection and completeness and wholeness.
When is that time?
One respected tradition says that the coming of perfection or completeness refers to the coming of the day when Scripture is complete, that is, when the last inspired writings are gathered into the Bible and the canon of Scripture is closed. Let me quote from one of these writers whom I highly respect:
“When Scripture is completed, then the church will have revelation thoroughly suited to her condition on earth. Our completed Bible is perfect in the sense that it is utterly sufficient revelation for all our needs. Paul is saying, “When the sufficient comes, the inadequate and partial will be done away. Tongues will vanish away, knowledge [and prophecies] will cease at the time that the New Testament is finished.”
So when verse 10 says, “When the perfect comes,” they say it means, “When the perfect New Testament comes.” Is that what Paul means by perfect?
The other view says that the coming of the perfect refers to the experience of perfection at the return of Christ.
So you see what is at stake in these two interpretations. If the coming of the perfect in verse 10 refers to the finishing of the New Testament, then the gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge have all passed away because that time came 1900 years ago. But if the coming of the perfect in verse 10 refers to the second coming of Christ then the natural understanding of the text is that the gifts will continue until Jesus comes.
Let’s test these two suggestions by the rest of the passage.
In the next verse (11) Paul says, “When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.” Paul compares the experience of partial prophecy and knowledge to the experience of childhood, and he compares the passing away of these gifts to the experience of adulthood. That comparison doesn’t seem to decide the issue for us.
Let’s go to the next verse. Verse 12: “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.” Now this is really helpful in making our decision! Here in verse 12 Paul is describing what verse 10 refers to, namely, “when the perfect comes.”
I want to make sure that you see this. Notice the contrast in verses 9 and 10 between “our knowledge is imperfect” (v. 9) and “when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away” (v. 10). Then drop down to verse 12 and notice the same contrast in the second part of the verse: “Now I know in part” contrasts with “then I shall understand fully.” So verse 12 is clearly describing the coming of “the perfect” referred to in verse 10.
Now does the description of the coming of the perfect in verse 12 fit with the second coming or with the completing of the New Testament?
Let’s take the two halves of the verse one at a time. First it says, “Now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.” Is it more likely that Paul is saying, “Now before the New Testament is written we see in a mirror dimly, but then when the New Testament is written we shall see face to face”? Or is it more likely that he is saying, “Now in this age we see in a mirror dimly, but then when the Lord returns we shall see face to face”? In the Old Testament there are half a dozen references to seeing God “face to face”. Revelation 22:4 says that in heaven we shall see God’s face. 1 John 3:2 says that when Jesus appears we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.
My conclusion is that the contrast between seeing fuzzily in an old mirror made out of metal and seeing face to face is not a contrast between first century spiritual knowledge and the knowledge we have from the New Testament today, but rather it’s a contrast between the imperfect knowledge we have today in this age and the awesome personal knowledge of God we will have when the Lord returns.
The second half of verse 12 points in the same direction. It says, “Now I know in part (the very same words used at the beginning of verse 9); then I shall be understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.” Now is this a contrast between before and after the New Testament or before and after the second coming?
It’s hard for me to imagine Paul or any of us saying that after the New Testament was written we now in this age understand fully, even as we have been fully understood. This surely refers to knowing in some sense the way God knows us—not omniscience; it doesn’t say we will know everything. But we will “be freed from the misconceptions and inabilities to understand (especially to understand God and his work) which are part of this present life . . . [Our knowledge] will contain no false impressions and will not be limited to what is able to be perceived in this age.”
So my conclusion on this question is this: Paul is saying that prophecies will pass away not when the New Testament is completed but when this age is completed at the second coming of the Lord from heaven. That’s when “the perfect comes” (v. 10). That’s when all speaking and thinking and reasoning like a child will be put away (v. 11). That’s when we will see “face to face” (v. 12a). That’s when we will “know fully even as we have been fully known” (v. 12b).”
August 23rd, 2011 at 1:13 pm
John F.
It seems that Horton has already stated that he largely agrees with Grudem and Piper on the exegesis of 1Cor 13. Instead of dismissing his position as crazy, and perhaps a thoughtful consideration of the other evidence may help in treating the cessationist case with a bit more respect even if you still disagree.
I’m not sure that Bunyan expected his dream would be treated as divine inspiration (although I’m open to be shown that I am wrong on this count). But I don’t see Horton trying to throw anyone under the bus. He’s willing to be friends, brothers and co-laborers in Christ with Lutherans, Methodists… plenty of non-reformed types. Suggesting that a belief is not reformed is not meant to be taken as an insult.
August 23rd, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Darren, I don’t see how John treated anyone’s position as crazy. He was quite respectful. But if Horton (and Piper and Grudem and Fee etc) all agree that 1 Corinthians 13 is not talking about the closing of the canon and if we have no other viable alternatives for what Paul IS talking about in 1 Corinthians 13 save Judgment Day and the culmination of all things, then what we have in 1 Corinthians 13, by clear exegesis, is an argument for the continuation of the gifts (all of them). I don’t see how that take is even controversial.
August 23rd, 2011 at 2:32 pm
” . . . prophecies, the dead being raised and quite a few other phenomenal things done by great saints such as John Knox, George Wishart, Samuel Rutherford, Alexander Pieden . . . ”
Mark — I don’t believe these things happened and I don’t believe they are happening anywhere in the world today. If somebody knows where these things are occurring, please say so. I’ll contact “The Amazing” James Randi and collect the million dollars.
There’s a reason why nobody has ever collected the million dollars. It isn’t because God can’t do this things, it’s just that He isn’t.
August 23rd, 2011 at 2:41 pm
It is true that Mark Driscoll talked about his “visions” in 2008. However, the video in which Driscoll testified about “seeing things” seems just to have become noticed last week. I’m wondering why it took three plus years for this thing to surface.
August 23rd, 2011 at 3:35 pm
Mark, I am with Paul in this regard. I do not regard extra-biblical literature (of any age) as reliable and I think all claims should be treated as suspect. I’m sure you are aware that just three years ago, a large part of the church was getting very excited over a “revival” in Florida where it was reported that tens of thousands of people were healed and 30-odd people were raised from the dead. But it was all lies. The track record in this area is appalling and I see no reason to believe anything unless there is incontrovertible proof, which has never been forthcoming so far. There are numerous verses in the Bible telling us to exercise discernment and I simply do not see the sign gifts operating today.
August 23rd, 2011 at 6:40 pm
@Mark from Austin:
check out the book “The Westminster Confession of Faith and the Cessation of Special Revelation” by Garnet Howard Milne It proves that the Scottish Reformers were NOT pre-Azusa Charismatics and were by and large cessationists, albeit with a strong sense of providentialism and apocalyptism.
August 23rd, 2011 at 8:03 pm
I spent over ten years in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. There is a lot of talk about the sovereignty of God and “sovereign moves of the Holy Spirit”, etc. However, the theological roots of the movement are in the Wesley holiness movement and Wesley’s theory of a second grace called “entire sanctification”. While some might say I’m committing the genetic fallacy, I have to think that anyone who is Reformed cannot possibly believe a theology that is inherently synergistic. God certainly does not need our help to heal or do miracles.
I might also point out that my move away from Pentecostalism came when I read D.R. McConnell’s book, A Different Gospel. It was that book that pointed out that the Charismatic theology of healing and prosperity has its origin in E.W.Kenyon’s syncretism of Christian Science with his Baptist faith. Kenneth Hagin then plagiarized Kenyon. Sadly this theology is now ubiquitous within the Charismatic movement. Thus, Mike Horton’s point above that the “Reformed” Charismatic road runs both ways is a valid one. In other words, otherwise orthodox Calvinists can be led into out and out heresy because of the so-called “Reformed” Calvinist movement. I for one do not buy it whatsoever.
I might point out that healing and miracles are unverifiable and unfalsifiable for all practical purposes since most of the “proofs” for these so-called ongoing gifts, signs and wonders are based on anecdotal stories and “evangelistic” exaggerations, an inside joke among Pentecostals themselves.
Yes, I studied Pentecostal theology first hand at Southeastern College of the Assemblies of God, now Southeastern University. I’ve practiced all the “gifts” at one time or another. I no longer believe these “gifts” were authentic or even supernatural. They were a cheap attempt at duplicating the genuine article reported in Scripture.
Sincerely in Christ,
Charlie J. Ray
August 23rd, 2011 at 10:11 pm
[...] 10 – Michael Horton on the “the compatibility of Reformation theology with Charismatic emphases…. [...]
August 23rd, 2011 at 10:18 pm
Paul, the issue strikes at the very heart of how we accept any historical testimony. You are calling into question the testimony of some of the great Scottish Reformers who reported these stories.
If this is the same Daniel Chew, then he and I have debated on another thread on facebook and he desperately doesn’t want to look at the Scottish Reformation stories, but they are reported very plainly in The Scot’s Worthies. I am not sure on what basis we would reject them unless we just assume an anti-supernatural hermeneutic for anything outside of Scripture itself. I struggle to understand the logic or reason in that choice. Why would we assume a Supernatural God ceased to act Supernaturally once He gave us a book?
From looking at the description of this book I found this: “In the opening chapter of the Confession, the divines of Westminster included a clause that implied that there would no longer be any special immediate revelation from God. Means by which God had once communicated the divine will, such as dreams, visions, and the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, were said to be no longer available. However, many of the authors of the WCF accepted that prophecy continued in their time, and a number of them apparently believed that disclosure of God’s will through dreams, visions, and angelic communication remained possible. How is the cessationist clause of WCF 1:1 to be read in the light of these claims? This book reconciles this paradox in a detailed study of the writings of the authors of the Westminster Confession of Faith.”
It seems to me that it was generally accepted that God did indeed still speak apart from Scripture (i.e. extra-biblically) but never in contradiction to it. This is my position and it seems to be the Biblical position. Scripture is our standard, but God still speaks outside of Scripture.
Once again, I implore you all to address I Corinthians 13 for me. What does it teach? No one has tried to argue that it teaches anything other than the fact that prophecy ends when the end comes. The end has not come (i.e. we don’t “know fully”) so we can safely say that according to Scripture, prophecy has not ended.
If we are indeed Protestants who uphold Sola Scriptura, then why will no one respond with Scripture? The arguments are based upon experience (Charlie Ray for example) or lack of experience (many of the rest of you). What does Scripture actually teach us and are we willing to be obedient?
I would say that it is noteworthy that right after Paul tells us when prophecy will end he says this: “Eagerly desire spiritual gifts, but most of all that you should prophesy.”
So what does this mean? And let’s please dispense with any foolish notion that “propheteo” actually means the preaching of the word. If Paul had wanted to say that he could have, he used a word that is pregnant with meaning and it does not mean preaching.
August 24th, 2011 at 3:55 am
Sorry, but this article essentially boils down to a dogmatic opinion piece that “prophecy doesn’t continue because I, and others, haven’t ever experienced it.”
God shows each of us different levels of grace. To say that the truly prophetic does not exist because there are lots of fakers (and I agree there are plenty!) is just as logically fallacious as saying there is no true version of Christianity because there are lots of false teachers.
That does not mean however that I believe the role of prophet as such exists. I don’t think we can ever assume that everything or even anything coming out of the mouth of someone alledging modern day prophecy is from God. We have the bible as the measuring stick agaist which to compare. If prophecy is genuine it will accord with truth and it will not contradict a consistent understanding of Scripture. However, I don’t think prophecy has ever really worked that way in that something is true simply because it was utterred by a prophet. “Spontanious” (from the human perspective) is exactly the right word that describes how the Holy Spirit works it, and Grudem’s analysis exactly describes my own experience. The raw power and the certainty of the experience is what can’t be described accurately to another, but it must always accord with truth as the enemy fights on this battlefield too, hence demonically inspired false religions.
The constant danger for the one who prophesies is that he thinks he is special because he has been chosen to deliver it, when he is merely the recipient of grace. It’s only through submission to scripture that the prophetic word can be established and it’s only through humble obedience that the prophetic word can be shared, when the time is right. the prophet should be working the revelation through with fear and trembling and then proclaim it boldly. It is with cautious testing that it should be judged, lest we be led astray and deceived.
August 24th, 2011 at 5:45 am
One thing that really helped me develop my views on this topic was studying religious experience and psychology. I realised how people can easily have religious experiences that appear completely real to them but are simply a product of the mind. Such experiences are not unique to christianity but found in most other religions. Hence I concluded that experience, be it contemporary or historic, isn’t reliable.
@ Mark from Austin,
The traditional exposition of 1 Cor 13 is that the sign gifts ceased at the completion of the NT canon or with the deaths of the apostles. This view has only begun to change because pentecostals and charismatics have gone round claiming that they have these gifts. I believe that these people are generally sincere but deluded (a few are just crooked).
@ Alisdair Smith,
We can argue forever about what the Bible teaches, but we won’t get anywhere. The only way of judging the theology is to see if it works in practice. Charismatic and pentecostal theology doesn’t work.
August 24th, 2011 at 6:03 am
Some excellent arguments, however I you surrender decisive exegetical ground when you concedes that 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 “is most likely referring to the consummation….” The coming of “the perfect” is a reference to the completion of the canon, not the Parousia (see James 1:25). See also Victor Budgen’s *The Charismatics and the Word of God.* I realize this is a minority position even in Reformed circles (it was Edward’s view), but the arguments in its defense I think soundly trump the standard view. For example, will “knowledge” really pass away when Christ returns? I don’t see why? I would hope we all would come to continually know more in glory than we do now.
August 24th, 2011 at 6:45 am
Thanks for a positive contribution to the debate. Two quick responses:
1. “Paul treats prophecy (prophēteia) as preaching”. Really? Agreed that both are to be tested, but is there any other evidence that the apostle saw the two as synonymous? How do you make sense of Luke’s statement that Philip had four daughters “who prophesied”? Were they female preachers?!
2. The view that tongues at Pentecost was essentially “gospel-preaching” in un-taught languages is a common claim in Reformed circles. But it seems to differ from Luke’s description of the speakers “declaring the wonders of God”. This compares with Paul in 1 Corinthians describing the one speaking in tongues as “uttering mysteries in his spirit”. Both descriptions imply tongues to be a language of worship directed heavenward, rather than a didactic message directed primarily at human beings (whether converted or otherwise).
August 24th, 2011 at 6:52 am
@ Al,
In response to your second point, there is debate as to whether the corinthian tongues were the same as those in acts. However, everything in 1 Cor 12/14 says that tongues must be used in an orderly fashion with interpretation afterwards. That basically doesn’t happen today and the pentecostals/charismatics seem unwilling to address it.
August 24th, 2011 at 6:58 am
The spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Christ. We should be clear to distinguish all forms of prophesy. Some were signs and wonders types to lend credibility to the authority of the speakers, some prophesy was for creation of the prophetic word of Scripture, others were to certify that the Gentiles were included in the New Covenant, and others were to simply bring others into the Kingdom like when Peter was filled with the Spirit and spoke boldly words that were clearly not his own. The discussion of continuation should be in the context of all these possible manifestations of the spirit in prophesy and not an all or nothing analysis. The debate gets lost because we fail to distinguish.
August 24th, 2011 at 7:33 am
Mark Driscoll’s “word of knowledge” doesn’t sound too much different from a well-known Baptist preacher in the 19th Century:
“While preaching in the hall, on one occasion, I deliberately pointed to a man in the midst of the crowd, and said, ‘There is a man sitting there, who is a shoemaker; he keeps his shop open on Sundays, it was open last Sabbath morning, he took ninepence, and there was fourpence profit out of it; his soul is sold to Satan for fourpence!’ A city missionary, when going his rounds, met with this man, and seeing that he was reading one of my sermons, he asked the question, ‘Do you know Mr. Spurgeon?’ ‘Yes,’ replied the man, ‘I have every reason to know him, I have been to hear him; and, under his preaching, by God’s grace I have become a new creature in Christ Jesus. Shall I tell you how it happened? I went to the Music Hall, and took my seat in the middle of the place; Mr. Spurgeon looked at me as if he knew me, and in his sermon he pointed to me, and told the congregation that I was a shoemaker, and that I kept my shop open on Sundays; and I did, sir. I should not have minded that; but he also said that I took ninepence the Sunday before, and that there was fourpence profit out of it. I did take ninepence that day, and fourpence was just the profit; but how he should know that, I could not tell. Then it struck me that it was God who had spoken to my soul though him, so I shut up my shop the next Sunday. At first, I was afraid to go again to hear him, lest he should tell the people more about me; but afterwards I went, and the Lord met with me, and saved my soul.’”
“I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description, that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, ‘Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit. I have sometimes seen persons nudge their neighbours with their elbow, because they had got a smart hit, and they have been heard to say, when they were going out, ‘The preacher told us just what we said to one another when we went in at the door’” (The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, [Curts & Jennings, 1899], Vol. II, pp. 226-227).
Read more at:
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/gifts-in-church-history/
August 24th, 2011 at 7:34 am
@Pete “Charismatic and pentecostal theology doesn’t work.” I agree, which is why I don’t believe it.
I’m a reformed Presbyterian from Scotland who reckons that Calvin and Knox got it pretty much spot on, so I don’t think we’d argue all that much about how to interpret the Bible. I believe the whole canon of scripture is verbally inspired, and so to know the mind of our God who inspired it, we must be thoroughly rigorous and absolutely diligent in our efforts to hold a consistant view of all of scripture. From what I can see so far in my walk, only reformed theology comes close. As an example I value the strict exegetical rigour of someone like James White.
“I realised how people can easily have religious experiences that appear completely real to them but are simply a product of the mind.”
Agreed. God created us as physical beings for a reason. I think the Holy Spirit is able to interact with that physiology at will. I think it’s one of the ways He’s able to guide our thoughts, to help us concentrate harder on a particular passage or to see things in the world He wants us to see. It stands to reason in a fallen world that it might be possible for other physical conditions to occassionaly impact on the same parts of the brain that God makes use of to interact with us. Just because there are “naturally” occuring religious experiences, I’m sure you would have to conceed that it does not logically follow that the real thing is not possible. I’m reliable informed there are currently three “Jesus’s” sitting in a ward of my local mental hospital. A surprisingly high percentage of mental illness has religious component, yet we agree this does not detract in any way from Christianity being true.
“Such experiences are not unique to christianity but found in most other religions. ”
If it is true that the Holy Spirit can use our physiology as one way He chooses to communicate with us, it would stand to reason that false religions would set out to mimic this truth as closely as they could, to create a false physical reaction in God’s creation, the body, in whatever way possible. Take, for example, that scientific study that showed nuns praying activated a certain part of the frontal cortex. This brain activity was able to be mimicked closely by Buddhists in an extended trance. It wouldn’t surprise me if Muslims repeating the call to prayer 5 times a day is designed to be the constant repetition of a mantra to self program their brains using a form of NLP technique. The prayer procedure they follow (head down on the ground for extended periods) is certainly designed to have a side effect of sending all the blood rushing to the front part of the brain. I would suggest that both the Buddhist and Muslim practices are actually just designed to falsely engender a similar physical reaction in the brain that a born again Christian with a regenerated mind and renewed heart can access instantly, simply by praying.
“Hence I concluded that experience, be it contemporary or historic, isn’t reliable.”
I agree to a point. Experience on it’s own is worthless, which is why we have the Bible as a measuring stick, to search to see that these things are true. Experience can be misleading if our theology is incorrect. Yet it’s not a logical to conclusion that experience is not reliable. Theology matters. Theology is key, yet when experience accords exactly with sound theology, the sum of the parts is greater than the whole.
August 24th, 2011 at 8:21 am
@ Ben,
One problem with your story from Spurgeon is that nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Sabbath is Sunday!
@ Alisdair Smith,
You said:
“If it is true that the Holy Spirit can use our physiology as one way He chooses to communicate with us, it would stand to reason that false religions would set out to mimic this truth as closely as they could, to create a false physical reaction in God’s creation, the body, in whatever way possible. Take, for example, that scientific study that showed nuns praying activated a certain part of the frontal cortex. This brain activity was able to be mimicked closely by Buddhists in an extended trance. It wouldn’t surprise me if Muslims repeating the call to prayer 5 times a day is designed to be the constant repetition of a mantra to self program their brains using a form of NLP technique. The prayer procedure they follow (head down on the ground for extended periods) is certainly designed to have a side effect of sending all the blood rushing to the front part of the brain. I would suggest that both the Buddhist and Muslim practices are actually just designed to falsely engender a similar physical reaction in the brain that a born again Christian with a regenerated mind and renewed heart can access instantly, simply by praying.”
I’m sorry but I can’t accept this conclusion. It requires too many assumptions.
How do you know that what was happening in the nuns’ brains was the result of the Holy Spirit? I’d say that they were simply programmed and conditioned to have such an experience, just like the muslims and buddhists you describe. Nothing to do with God or the Holy Spirit, simply the brain playing tricks on you. And studies have shown that atheists can be made to have similar experiences by using the right psychological techniques. Psychoactive drugs can also have the same effect.
I’ve seen charismatics use your argument for why their speaking in tongues is the same as pagan speaking in tongues!
I think the view that say all religious experiences are a product of the mind is much simpler and fits the facts on the ground perfectly.
August 24th, 2011 at 8:42 am
That’s fine, Pete. As long as you recognise that your opinion is informed by your personal experience of the Holy Spirit in as much as my opinion is informed by mine. You’re obviously not claiming that yours is the only legitmate Christian experience.
“I think the view that say all religious experiences are a product of the mind is much simpler” – it’s too simplistic – Stick Occams razor back in your pocket.
August 24th, 2011 at 9:09 am
@Pete
Tongues are routinely interpreted in the reformed charismatic churches I have been part of for the last 30 years. We must have been moving in different circles.
Agree that there is a discussion to be had about tongues in Acts 2 and 1 Cor 12-14.
August 24th, 2011 at 9:34 am
For the most part, this has been a great discussion. First, let me add a little to my argument for the cessation of gifts that I believe are distinctive of the prophets and apostles. One respondent included a link to John Piper’s comments on the subject. I checked that out and would affirm everything that he said there. We don’t know what God decides to do in his sovereign freedom, only what he has promised to do in his Word. God is indeed not “in a box.” However, he has bound himself to work ordinarily through the means of grace: preaching and sacrament.
People can tell all sorts of interesting stories about extraordinary visions, miracles, and prophecies. Can some of them be genuine? Sure. God can to whatever he chooses to do, just as he can save whomever he chooses to save—including children who die in infancy, or the mentally handicapped, or other extraordinary cases. However, the extraordinary cases are beyond us. We have to rely on what God has promised to do ordinarily. My argument in no way addresses whether, for example, the Spirit reveals something to an unreached people group to prepare them for the preaching of the gospel. The question I address is whether we have, on God’s verbal authority, any reason to expect such things where the means of grace are available.
Historically, brothers and sisters committed to a Pentecostal/Charismatic ministry need to realize that they are standing on the radical Anabaptist side of the Reformation debate, and the reformers were as opposed to this movement as they were to Rome. The Reformed as well as Lutheran confessions are explicit in their rejection of the Anabaptist positions. That doesn’t settle the debate, of course, but it certainly does define what the Reformed view actually is. The White Horse Inn isn’t just a Reformed group. And it’s certainly not a church—no membership, no excommunication! So bring your questions and challenges and let’s search the Scriptures together in love and charity. Simply to make the case is not to be divisive; it’s just to make a case.
Mike
August 24th, 2011 at 10:35 am
[...] * Reformed and Charismatic? [...]
August 24th, 2011 at 10:41 am
Mark from Austin wrote:
“Paul, the issue strikes at the very heart of how we accept any historical testimony. You are calling into question the testimony of some of the great Scottish Reformers who reported these stories.”
Mark, I am indeed calling that testimony into question. That doesn’t make those making the claims bad people, nor does it besmirch those reporting. I just don’t accept their testimony.
But let me narrow it to what I am particularly interested in — the raising of someone from the dead. I think most everyone in this discussion can agree what it means to rise from the dead more so than they can agree on what it means to prophesy.
Claims of the dead being raised are not uncommon today. They usually hail from far away places like Africa. As I said before God, can do anything any time He wants. But I don’t believe He is raising people from the dead today and I don’t believe the devil is either.
Jesus never had His miracles refuted by some very bright people alive in the first century. In one instance, after Jesus raised a man from the dead, the Pharisees wanted to kill that man along with Jesus! These things happened right there, out in the open, for all to see. Jesus even invited Thomas to inspect his wounds as evidence the He was indeed risen from the dead.
Where is the evidence for us to inspect regarding the dead being raised today? As I said before, there are people willing to pay big money to examine claims like this.
August 24th, 2011 at 11:35 am
I too will take the effort of the theological road, i.e. the doctrine of God! (Theo-logos) Here I will go with Luther, Calvin, and even Karl Barth, over the Holy Scripture. Though the latter is surely not infallible, he is closer to essence of the Reformers in my opinion. And that would always be ‘Word & Spirit’. Indeed the “charisma” is ‘gift & grace’, from God In Christ!
August 24th, 2011 at 12:14 pm
Will someone please define ‘reformed’ for me? I have had many conversations with people who seem very clear about what it means and then I find there are points of difference with others who are equally clear that they are reformed. speak as one who has served as an elder in a Presbyterian Church and also completely convinced on reading Grudem on Prophecy that the full range of spiritual gifts are avialable to the church today
August 24th, 2011 at 3:08 pm
Great question David. The classic, textbook definition of “Reformed” is those churches that adhere to the Scriptures as they are summarized, taught, and confessed in the Three Forms of Unity (Belgic Confession, Heidelberg Catechism, and Canons of Dort) and the Westminster Confession and Catechisms. In the last few years, the definition has changed in some circles, to encompass all those who affirm the five points of Calvinism–regardless of how one differs with the confessional position on other important points.
While Arminian Baptists hail from the Anabaptist movement, Calvinistic Baptists were mostly Congregationalists who abandoned infant baptism. At no point did Calvinistic Baptists identify themselves as Reformed, any more than Reformed and Presbyterian believers identified themselves as Baptist.
So that’s the history, which ought to be respected even if one wishes to challenge it. To say that one is Reformed, while excluding the children of believers from the covenant of grace (signified and sealed in baptism), is as inaccurate as to say that one is a Baptist, while denying immersion and adult-only baptism.
I think that a better umbrella term for what many today mean by “Reformed” is actually “evangelical” (in the best sense) or perhaps “Reformational.”
The point in all of this is not to exclude others, but to defend the integrity (i.e., wholeness) of the Reformed confession. It holds together. You can’t just pick out a few doctrines. That’s true of any other confession and churches have the responsibility to put a check on the democratic-egalitarian tendency to create our own hybrids. We confess the faith together, rather than creating our own combinations from a smorgasbord of options.
At the White Horse Inn, we appeal to C. S. Lewis’s image of “mere Christianity” as the hallway of a great house. In the hallway all who trust in Christ, affirming the ecumenical creeds, mix and mingle and welcome visitors. However, we can only live in actual rooms, where we’re bathed, clothed, fed, and cared for. We believe that evangelicalism is that hallway and the White Horse Inn hosts as well as Modern Reformation writers happily join in this hallway fellowship and common witness. However, our churches–and distinct confessions–are the rooms. We need to get out of our rooms, to breathe fresh air, learn from others, and share in works of mercy and outreach.
Nevertheless, the tendency of evangelicals is to turn the rooms into the hallway as if it were the whole house. Now that some are calling this hallway “Reformed,” there is increasingly no actual place that the Reformed room occupies in the house. Why can’t we let Lutherans be Lutherans, Baptists be Baptists, Pentecostals be Pentecostals, and Reformed folks be Reformed–while meeting up on occasion in the hallway? We’re going to still keep doing that and, whatever room you live in, we hope to see you in the hallway.
August 24th, 2011 at 6:22 pm
Ok, so I am still confused here. Protestant Magisterium aside, what does the Scripture actually say? To say that “that which is perfect” was the closing of the canon is an outdated and paltry interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13. Gordon Fee thoroughly dismantled that argument 24 years ago in his Commentary on 1 Corinthians. Besides that, to call this the “traditional” understanding of 1 Corinthians is incredibly shortsighted. To my knowledge this is a rather novel understanding of that passage historically, but regardless it just doesn’t follow from good exegesis. If the canon is “that which is perfect” then we should “know fully” and we should “see clearly.” I don’t think either of these tests have been met remotely.
I am also curious about this: Do those of you who believe the gifts have ceased believe that we are to “eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you should prophesy?” If not, why not?
Furthermore, I think the ultimate logical outflow of the cessationist position was well described by Jack Deere as functional Deism. If God is no longer able to communicate except through a book, then we have a relationship with a book and not with God. That is not what Jesus came to restore. Scripture is the standard and the means, but it is not the goal or the aim. The goal and the aim is a restored relationship with God as Father. To stop at Scripture is to fall short of the goal.
August 24th, 2011 at 7:39 pm
At last report, I heard that by 2020 80% of Christians in the World would be considered “charismatic.” I don’t remember if that number included Catholics or not, which obviously is incredibly important to the figure, but I just can’t recall.
August 24th, 2011 at 7:51 pm
I would highly recommend D.A. Carson’s book “Showing the Spirit: A Theological Exposition of 1 Corinthians 12-14.” Carson’s exposition is a devastating argument against the cessation of the gifts but he also expresses concerns over the current practice of tongues and prophecy in many charismatic church today.
August 24th, 2011 at 9:48 pm
Where is the gift of the working of miracles operating in the world today?
I graduated from Oral Roberts University. During that four year stint, in addition to hearing Oral Roberts, I often sat at the feet of Brother Kenneth Hagin during his Bible seminars. During those years, I heard lots of great stories about miracles, signs and wonders. I heard the speculation that wonderful miracles are no doubt occurring in the remotest parts of the world even as we speak. But I haven’t seen any hard evidence.
If miracles such as those that occurred in the Bible are occurring today, why is it so hard to document them? The cessation argument has been around for a number of years. It would seem to me that hard evidence of a modern day miracle would force those in the cessation camp to modify their position.
BTW, the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge has $1.2 + million in the account. Mostly fixed income. That means he has that million dollars in there accruing interest for quite a while. Randi is an atheist and he is calling the bluff of those who claim that miracles are at work in the earth today.
August 25th, 2011 at 6:46 am
@ Mark From Austin. I think you’re confused about a few things.
First, and at least as far as I can tell, it is a minority position within the Reformed community that views “the perfect” in 1 Cor. 13:8-13 as the complete and closed canon.
Second, I find it hard to believe that Gordon Fee “thoroughly dismantled” the arguments in favor of this position 24 years or ever. You simply saying he did is not an argument.
Third,it would grammatically odd to refer to Christ in the neuter gender “το τελειον” (the perfect thing) rather than the masculine o τελειο (he who is perfect). Is Christ referred to as the perfect thing anywhere else in Scripture? The argument is that Paul is anticipating that all the extraordinary gifts of prophesy, tongues, new revelatory knowledge will cease, not continue, with the coming of the complete revelation; ie., the close of the canon. The extraordinary gifts refer to to the church in her infancy which is why Paul tells us there will come a time when we are to put away these “childish” things. Further, when Paul concludes stressing “faith, hope, love” will abide, if this were a reference to Christ’s return why hope? Doesn’t Paul tell us in Romans 8:24 that “hope that is seen is not hope”?
I understand why Charismatics cling to the traditional view of this passage as the end of the age, for if that is the case the clear implication is that prophesy, tongues and special words of knowledge (apart and in addition to those already inscripturated)will continue until Christ returns. If so why then abide in faith, hope and love? Shouldn’t we also continue to abide in prophesy, tongues and special words of knowledge? If that’s the case the contrast Paul is making is destroyed and the passage makes no sense.
There are quite a few other arguments in favor of this “minority” position, but I think the standard one is full of too many exegetical holes.
August 25th, 2011 at 6:53 am
@ Paul,
I agree with you completely. Isn’t it interesting that the claimed “miracles” always happen in far-off lands where no-one can check if the stories are true or not!
(Having said that, the internet now makes lying a lot harder. There was a case recently where Bill Johnson’s church posted a report on their website about some supposed resurrections in Brazil. Someone from Brazil saw the report and was able to confirm that it was all false).
The truth is that charismatic and pentecostal christians need miracles to validate their theology. So they don’t view claims with suspicion. It’s sad that atheists like Randi have more discernment that so-called “spirit-filled” christians.
I’d love to be able to say that God was doing miracles today. But there is no evidence that He is. So I just accept that and believe in Him all the same. That’s what’s faith is about.
If people like Robert, Hagin, Wimber, Hinn, Cerullo, Bentley, who are exemplified as models of charismatic christianity, are not doing miracles, then somehow I don’t think anyone else is. The whole movement is based on a false premise.
August 25th, 2011 at 6:59 am
Mark from Austine writes:
“At last report, I heard that by 2020 80% of Christians in the World would be considered “charismatic.” I don’t remember if that number included Catholics or not, which obviously is incredibly important to the figure, but I just can’t recall.”
IMO this is the biggest danger of the entire Charismatic movement and it is the blurring of theological lines to the point where Roman Catholics, provided they are “charismatic,” are also viewed and counted as Christians. I can’t tell you how many charismatics I’ve met over the years, even my own sister, who just assume their Catholic charismatic friends are Christians for no other reason that they too have shared a similar mystical experience. IMO your statistics, if correct, are merely proof that we are living in the new dark ages.
August 25th, 2011 at 7:07 am
@ Paul. Good points all, however, you write:
“It would seem to me that hard evidence of a modern day miracle would force those in the cessation camp to modify their position.”
I don’t see why as I would think Jesus’ warning in Mark 13:22 and Matthew 24:24 about false christs and false prophets coming with great “signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect” would come into play, and should come into play even now.
August 25th, 2011 at 9:34 am
Sean,
I appreciate your candor. I agree with you, the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13 being put forth by cessationists on this blog is indeed a minority position historically. I was not in any way challenging that. I was merely pointing out that even if it were not a minority position, it doesn’t matter as we believe in Sola Scriptura and not some Protestant “Magesterium.” If you read the entire discussion, you will see some on this blog were claiming that this was the “historical” position. While I agree that it is a position held by some in history, it is not the “historical” position in the sense of being the majority position.
As for Gordon Fee’s critique of the cessationist interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13, you can read it for yourself and see what you decide. I will let you know why your points are not at all helpful for establishing the cessationist position. But I should also mention that it was my Theology professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, a thoroughly convinced cessationist, who told me that about Fee’s work. He told me that back in 1998 or 1999.
Now for your points about 1 Corinthians 13:
I never said that 1 Corinthians 13 was specifically referring to Christ. I believe it is referring to the culmination of all things. We might call that judgment day, the eschaton, or even just the full manifestation of the Kingdom of God coming. Regardless, all of those 3 alternatives to seeing it as “Christ” easily explain why it is not necessary that “το τελειον” need to refer to Christ in order for a continuationist perspective to have merit. This makes the next argument in your chain unmeritorious.
Your next point is quite interesting. Paul says that “These 3 remain, faith, hope and love.” I am 2,000 miles away from my Fee commentary on Corinthians, but that will be a fun one to dig into. I would quickly point out that I am sure Eternity is filled with “hope” because while we will be seeing present realities fully, God is “unsearchable” and eternal, so I am sure there will always be hope for what is yet to be revealed by God about His nature. I imagine Faith too will be something that we never cease to have. In other words, satan was clearly able to fall in eternity and therefore lacked Faith, while the 2/3rd host of heaven that didn’t fall remained faithful (i.e. “full of faith”) in God.
I suppose the question I would be curious to hear you answer is do we now “see fully” or “know fully?” I don’t think the closing of the canon can begin to answer that question in the affirmative. Those realities (i.e. seeing fully and knowing fully) seem to be very much set in my future.
To answer your final point about faith, hope and love, I would merely argue that Paul is reminding us that while in the church age we have prophecy, tongues and revelation, the most essential gifts (or fruit) to be seen in all ages is faith, hope and love. That will remain true throughout eternity.
I have honored you by answering your question, I would love for you to answer mine. Do you think we are supposed to “eagerly desire spiritual gifts, but most of all that you should prophesy?” If not, why not?
August 25th, 2011 at 9:39 am
Oh…and Sean, I was specifically NOT blurring the lines between Catholicism and orthodox Christianity. The very reason I mentioned that I wasn’t sure if that number was including Catholics or not (and subsequently added “which obviously is incredibly important to the figure”) is because I DO see an important distinction to be made. I would be far more impressed with that figure if it did not include Catholics, but since I can’t recall, I was candid and reported that fact. I am not sure how you interpreted my candor about the statistic as being a “blurring of theological lines” but that was not my intention and is not my mind on the matter. I say that as one married to a former Catholic who didn’t know Jesus from a hole in the wall.
I am also curious as to how the form of Christianity being put forth by cessationists varies from classical Deism? If God is now silent apart from the Bible, then what is a “relationship” with God apart from just a classification of the fact that you have made Him your Lord (by which you mean, you have decided to submit yourself to the Word of God since He himself only now directs you through Scripture itself)?
August 25th, 2011 at 9:47 am
Mike,
The confessions and catechisms are not innerant and authoritative. “The Faith” is not found there. “The Faith” is found in the Word. You reformed guys lose me when you run to the confessions (I do respect them). I think the problem in this discussion really is found in what it means to be “reformed”. Perhaps even the label is unnecessary?
I don’t believe in the cessation of the gifts but I don’t call myself a charismatic.
Ian
August 25th, 2011 at 10:41 am
Even those of us that are somewhat cessationist, are so toward the so-called ‘sign-gifts’, and miracles. But never toward the reality of the ‘Shekhinah glory’ and presence of God! Indeed God is God, as Luther said, and HE can do what He pleases! But, I am proudly.. can I say: Reformed and Anglican!
August 25th, 2011 at 10:51 am
Btw, the Ecumenical Councils & Creeds are “authoritative”, within the historical Church Catholic/Reformed (at least for real Anglicans), but indeed only God and His Word are Infallible!
*Note Luther was a Nicene homoousios..In Christ he maintained, we are confronted by God Himself, for Christ is ‘very God’!
August 25th, 2011 at 10:58 am
Ian,
In essence, the Confessions are just an attempt by previous Christians to set down in a systematic way what the Faith is that they found in the Word, and they were usually formalised against a backdrop of error that they were looking to counter and address.
If you want to know what our forefathers actually believed, and how they interpreted scripture, there is no better source.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:30 am
Robert,
“Even those of us that are somewhat cessationist, are so toward the so-called ‘sign-gifts’, and miracles”
I don’t see where the Bible makes that distinction when it addresses the gifts.
Alisdair,
Is there anything stopping the Reformed to add to the confessions? just thinking outloud here ….. like the Minnesota COnfession of 2011.
Ian
August 25th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
@Ian,
The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds, at least perhaps the first five Councils (5), are hardly only “just” for historic Churchmen! You might want to see how the history of the Trinity of God itself was hammered out, note the 2nd century Monarchianism, which was a reaction against the Logos theology of Justin Martyr, and other apologists. But of course Monarchianism was later rejected by the First Council of Constantinople. See perhaps J.N.D. Kelly’s classic book here: Early Christian Doctrines. And yes Kelly was an Anglican, but a certain Christian and fine scholar. And note too later some of Tertullian’s trinitarian works, especially his: Against Praxeas.
Concerning the ‘Gifts’ of the Spirit, again, this is a long and certainly a tough issue or subject, but I will theologically follow the more classic cessionist lines, though hopefully as I said, always seeking to let God be God! I have lived thru both the Catholic charismatic movement, and even before the Anglican version, (70′s & 80′s). And I have seen the movement falter, both practically and theological in my opinion. So we should live that issue there!
August 25th, 2011 at 12:18 pm
*leave
August 25th, 2011 at 12:38 pm
[[I was merely pointing out that even if it were not a minority position, it doesn’t matter as we believe in Sola Scriptura and not some Protestant “Magesterium.”]]
Fair enough. I thought you were arguing that the minority position which I subscribe to was the traditional historic Protestant position and it’s not. Of course, if revelatory knowledge continues beyond the close of the canon, then I would think that greatly undermines the doctrine of sola scriptura at least as understood historically by Protestants. In fact, ongoing revelatory knowledge is key to the authority claims of the Magesterium in Rome, and, interestingly enough, RCC apologists make many of the same arguments as do charismatics in support of their belief in things like the imagined infallibility of church tradition and ex cathedra papal pronouncements.
[[As for Gordon Fee’s critique of the cessationist interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13, you can read it for yourself and see what you decide. ]]
That’s true. I can. And, maybe I will at some point. But you brought him up. I brought up Victor Budgen’s The Charismatics and the Word of God, but at least I’ve tried to articulate some of his arguments in support of my own position (which, fwiw, I didn’t have until I read his book). I used to think the perfect coming was a reference to the coming of Christ in judgement.
[[I never said that 1 Corinthians 13 was specifically referring to Christ. I believe it is referring to the culmination of all things. We might call that judgment day, the eschaton]]
I did make reference to the Parousia above, so perhaps we’re just taking past each other here.
[[I would quickly point out that I am sure Eternity is filled with “hope” because while we will be seeing present realities fully, God is “unsearchable” and eternal, so I am sure there will always be hope for what is yet to be revealed by God about His nature.]]
OK, I’ll grant that. But then you would agree that revelatory knowledge isn’t going to cease in glory as we will grow in the knowledge of God as he reveals Himself to his now sinless creatures, right? But Paul said knowledge would cease, so it would follow that if the perfect is a reference to the close of the age or judgment day, then there would be no additional knowledge to follow. I don’t see how that follows?
[[ I imagine Faith too will be something that we never cease to have. In other words, satan was clearly able to fall in eternity and therefore lacked Faith, while the 2/3rd host of heaven that didn’t fall remained faithful (i.e. “full of faith”) in God. ]]
Being faithful and having faith are not synonyms, even though the former can and should result from the latter. Also, I certainly agree that while we abide in faith, hope and love certainly love will continue throughout eternity. The question really has to do with when and why prophesy, miraculous tongues and new words of knowledge (divinely revealed propositions) will cease. If they haven’t ceased, then how can anyone presume the canon is closed? Maybe we should be adding new revelations to God’s Word despite John’s warning in Revelation.
[[I suppose the question I would be curious to hear you answer is do we now “see fully” or “know fully?” I don’t think the closing of the canon can begin to answer that question in the affirmative. Those realities (i.e. seeing fully and knowing fully) seem to be very much set in my future. ]]
I don’t see why this is particularly difficult as the picture Paul is drawing is one of the partial in comparison to the whole. Paul was entrusted with a portion of the NT canon as were the other writers. He didn’t posses the whole canon. Another illustration might be Paul and the other apostles only had pieces of the puzzle. Seeing fully is a reference not to seeing someone or something with the eyes in your head, but with the eyes of your mind. This is why the writers of the Westminster Confession refer to the meaning of Scripture as being one and that all the various parts of Scripture from Gen to Rev perfectly and logically cohere. Even the great Paul could not see that, even though he certainly anticipates it in this passage.
[[I have honored you by answering your question, I would love for you to answer mine. Do you think we are supposed to “eagerly desire spiritual gifts, but most of all that you should prophesy?” If not, why not?]]
Thank you. I think what is true of Paul’s immediate audience prior to the close of the canon is one thing, and what’s true of us today since God’s complete and full self-revelation has already been given is quite another. No, you should not seek to prophesy in the sense of speaking new propositional revelations from God any more than you should desire to speak in miraculous tongues. There is no new propositional revelation from God. God has spoken in His Word and His Word is closed. However, properly interpreting Scripture and drawing out valid implications even as you perhaps do the arduous work of learning to communicate the truths of Scripture and the Gospel in another language should certainly be pursued.
August 25th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
[[ I would be far more impressed with that figure if it did not include Catholics, but since I can’t recall, I was candid and reported that fact. I am not sure how you interpreted my candor about the statistic as being a “blurring of theological lines” but that was not my intention and is not my mind on the matter.]]
I appreciate that. But, I think you would have to agree that many Charismatics DO blur those lines and for good reason. If a Roman Catholic has been given the gift of the HS, or so we’re told, and, say, speaks in tongues, then for many that become a sign that they too have received God’s “anointing” despite what they may believe about the finished work of Christ, not to mention what they may believe about Mary or the pope himself. To suggest that such a person is not a believer, a Christian, would be to question the very work of the HS. I’m glad you’re not one of those Charismatics, but I assure you they there are out there and in droves.
[[I am also curious as to how the form of Christianity being put forth by cessationists varies from classical Deism? If God is now silent apart from the Bible, then what is a “relationship” with God apart from just a classification of the fact that you have made Him your Lord (by which you mean, you have decided to submit yourself to the Word of God since He himself only now directs you through Scripture itself)?]]
What, if God does not speak to me with new revelations and I’m content with those things God has seen fit to set down in Scripture along with those things necessary deduced from them makes me a Deist? I don’t see how that follows. Don’t we come to know the Lord and all His work from the Scriptures alone? As I’m sure you know, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” What more could any Christian possibly need?
August 25th, 2011 at 1:38 pm
We are splintering in too many directions, so I am going to be brief. If you made a particular point you would like me to address, merely mention it and I will do my best. But I fear we are adding so many branches to the discussion that we may both become overwhelmed (or at least I will) with what it would take to respond and cease responding altogether.
Do you think all revelation from God is equal to Scripture? Should it all be written down and considered at the same level authority?
To be clear about Catholicism, I do know that there are many Catholics who are true Christians even though I believe them to be terribly in error about things like Mary and salvation by Faith alone (as you and I would mean that phrase not as they try to claim to agree when they don’t). I am thankful that I am not the judge, but I do believe (and even know) some Catholics who are truly redeemed. That raises the very thorny issue of “what is necessary” for salvation? If we believe that what is necessary is that God has redeemed us by His choice and we have understood our sinfulness and our need for a Savior who is found in Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. So I think that allows for a lot of Christians with terrible theology, as much as I personally don’t like that fact. Although, I am simultaneously VERY grateful as I am quite confident that I am wrong about some things that I am convinced I am right about. So I praise God for mercy.
As for things ending…it seems the purpose and function of “tongues, knowledge and prophesy” will all be radically changed or ended altogether in eternity. It is generally thought that “knowledge” is a particular revelation of something at a particular time and for a particular purpose. I don’t think it is just “knowledge” in the generic sense. Obviously tongues and prophecy are even easier in this regards. I think that it makes great sense that those 3 gifts would end in the eschaton, while “these three remain, faith, hope and love.”
August 25th, 2011 at 1:41 pm
oh..your last question was quite poignant. i think you are making great points, but you are asking the wrong questions. i agree that we don’t “need” anything else. but to me it is not so much a question of what we need as it is a question of what God promised us and what God desires. if Jesus came to restore relationship between man and the Father, then relationship is what we are after. I am not at all clear how reading Scripture is a relationship. certainly, it is a critical part of knowing about God, but the Pharisees are an excellent example of a people who knew Scripture inside and out (far better than any of us on this blog no doubt) yet missed the Word Incarnate when He showed up. knowing Scripture is no substitute for knowing God and it seems that what Jesus said to his Apostles applies, in principle, to all of us: “My sheep know my voice and hear it.”
August 25th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
If i merely read letters from my wife to me and took them very seriously and studied them, parsed them and debated about what she meant at different points, but never spoke to her or let her speak to me, it seems my relationship with her would be quite crippled in many meaningful ways. how does a cessationist make major life decisions? is it by just doing their best job guessing what God would want based upon their reading of Scripture? don’t get me wrong, i don’t always have clear words from God about what is next (nor do I need them) but there are times when God directs me fairly clearly about what is next. it seems that a relationship requires some form of ongoing communication that can’t be fully satisfied by Scriptures alone, as absolutely critical as they are to a healthy walk with God.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:45 pm
Sean,
Concerning your last comment, I’m a bit confused.
[What, if God does not speak to me with new revelations and I’m content with those things God has seen fit to set down in Scripture along with those things necessary deduced from them makes me a Deist? I don’t see how that follows. Don’t we come to know the Lord and all His work from the Scriptures alone?]
Jesus says specifically that He goes to be with the Father to send Mr. H.S. who will lead us into truth. Elsewhere Paul states that the Holy Spirit leads us to repentance. I completely agree that God’s word is a part of this, but it is the tool used by the Holy Spirit. Would you define conviction as extra-biblical revelation or is this unction in it’s own special class?
I would like to point out to both Horton and other commenter that the text does not define “spiritual gifts.” Paul actually says that he is speaking to what is spiritual. Gifts is in italics every time but once because it does not appear in the manuscript. The introduction in Corinthians 12:1 says that he does not want the reader to be unaware of what is spiritual.
Early church leaders such as Polycarp and Ignatius had bizarre happenings in their life, and early church fathers uphold these as facts. And the councils were put together by these men, which are upheld to this day. If I can’t trust church history then I must start completely over using scripture, and if I did either I still don’t think I can would be fully into cessation.
I’m new to posting like this, so any polite comments on how I might better shape my thoughts would be appreciated
August 25th, 2011 at 3:24 pm
[[Do you think all revelation from God is equal to Scripture? Should it all be written down and considered at the same level authority?]]
Why wouldn’t it be if it were really from God as Charismatics claim? Of course, Peter said that in Scripture we have the prophetic word “made more sure,” but if God has indeed spoken then He has spoken.
[[To be clear about Catholicism, I do know that there are many Catholics who are true Christians even though I believe them to be terribly in error about things like Mary and salvation by Faith alone (as you and I would mean that phrase not as they try to claim to agree when they don’t). I am thankful that I am not the judge, but I do believe (and even know) some Catholics who are truly redeemed. ]]
That’s interesting, because there is no justification for any sin apart from faith alone. This is the doctrine that Luther rightly identified on which the church stands or falls. If a person doesn’t believe that Christ’s death alone, completely apart from themselves and apart from anything wrought in them, is insufficient to cleanse them of their sin, then I have a hard time seeing how they might be considered a Christian regardless of how religiously pious they might appear. Those are people for whom I fear for their souls. After all, Paul’s harshest words are reserved for self-styled “Christians,” the Judiazers, who similarly argued that faith alone is not enough to save a man but one must perform acts of evangelical obedience, in this case circumcision, in order to be a true Christian. The point is they must do something. Paul had no problem judging such teachers and even damning them to Hell. So one what basis can you claim to know those who are “terribly in error about things like Mary and salvation by Faith alone” are yet truly redeemed? Is this by some private revelation or is it just a feeling you have?
[[As for things ending…it seems the purpose and function of “tongues, knowledge and prophesy” will all be radically changed or ended altogether in eternity. It is generally thought that “knowledge” is a particular revelation of something at a particular time and for a particular purpose. I don’t think it is just “knowledge” in the generic sense. Obviously tongues and prophecy are even easier in this regards. I think that it makes great sense that those 3 gifts would end in the eschaton, while “these three remain, faith, hope and love.”]]
But you admitted that knowledge will not end in eternity. You said, “God is “unsearchable” and eternal, so I am sure there will always be hope for what is yet to be revealed by God about His nature.” Also, who thinks knowledge, even in this context, is “a particular revelation of something at a particular time and for a particular purpose”? Wouldn’t God revealing additional truths about His nature in heaven be a particular revelation of something at a particular time for a particular purpose? I think it would be.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:31 pm
[[if Jesus came to restore relationship between man and the Father, then relationship is what we are after. I am not at all clear how reading Scripture is a relationship. certainly, it is a critical part of knowing about God, but the Pharisees are an excellent example of a people who knew Scripture inside and out]]
Yet, Jesus demonstrates time and again that they, the Pharisees, really didn’t know, much less believe, the Scriptures. Further, the only way to get to know anyone is when they reveal something about themselves. God has done so in His Word. I can hope to know nothing about God or His attributes or His purposes apart from Scripture. The assumption you make is that you can and implied in your remarks is that the Scriptures, by themselves, are insufficient for what you believe is central to the Christian faith which is a relationship. How is that not directly undermining the very idea of sola scriptura?
August 25th, 2011 at 3:48 pm
@ Freebird. No, I wouldn’t define conviction as “extra-biblical revelation or is this unction in it’s own special class. I would define conviction as a firm or fixed belief. But, maybe I’ve misunderstood your question?
August 25th, 2011 at 4:10 pm
As has been noted, we have opened-up several “cans” here, but we simply cannot solve this on an open blog. I am Reformed, and I love Luther also, but again he is not infallible either. And in reality, the Church can only stand or fall upon the “Person” of Christ! And this is really the essence of Matt. 16:16-20, etc. Note, 1 John 4:1-3 / 2 John 7-9 ; see too verses 4-6 in 1 John 4, and there we can see also the great impact of loving God and each other..7-23.
I am certainly Reformed on the Doctrines of Grace myself, but the great doctrine of Justification must be sought itself in the Holy Scripture, and the Reformed Creeds help us here, but again as even John Frame has reminded us they are confessions of the faith, but again not that faith itself. They must always be a subordinate authority, to the authority of the Word of God itself, in ‘Spirit & Truth’.
Btw, this might be a good time to fly my wee bit of a flag for the Federal Vision. I am still very close to Federal Calvinism, but I am also close somewhat (note I said somewhat) to the the Federal Vision, and here I speak really more as an Anglican, that is certainly Reformed.
August 25th, 2011 at 4:15 pm
You certainly did opened a can with the Federal Vision admission. Perhaps it explains your unease with Luther on the question on which the church stands or falls. Just a thought.
August 25th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Sean,
I really love Luther, I did my D. Phil. way back when, on Luther’s Ontology of the Cross. So Luther is a great Reformer, as is Calvin (who I love also). But no one is infallible, save Christ and the Apostles! Note I am also the old man here at 61, so be kind!
August 25th, 2011 at 4:38 pm
Note, I read and like Barth too..
But believe me I am a Calvinist! Btw, speaking of Barth, he is like a modern Church Father to me, but again, I can be very critical of him! Just seeking to express myself as to sources I read, etc. The Christian theolog must be a seeker of truth!
August 25th, 2011 at 9:13 pm
” for which cause also his [Christ's] true disciples having received grace from him use it in his name for the benefit of the rest of men, even as each has received the gift from him. For some drive out demons with certainty and truth, so that often those who have themselves been cleansed from the evil spirits believe and are in the church, and some have foreknowledge of things to be, and visions and prophetic speech, and others cure the sick by the laying on of hands and make them whole, and even as we have said, the dead have been raised and remained with us for many years. And why should I say more? It is not possible to tell the number of the gifts which the church throughout the whole world, having received them from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, uses each day for the benefit of the heathen, deceiving none and making profit from none. For as it received freely from God, it ministers also freely.
Against Heresies, 2, 49:2
That was late 2nd Century and is Irenaeus speaking. The notion that the gifts of the Spirit ended at the end of the 1st Century or with the death of the Apostles is foreign to history, although I agree that they have been largely neglected by the body of Christ.
So if anything God says is equal to Scripture, where are the words of Philips daughters who were called “prophetesses?” What were the words of Saul when he fell down and prophesied along with many others right before him in the same story?
August 25th, 2011 at 10:10 pm
Like Dr. Horton I am not a full fledge Cessationist.
I thought Dr. Horton was very fair concerning the issue. The position he took will take some criticism from both Non-Cessationists and Cessationists. Mainly because his position while closer to Cessationism than Non-Cessationism, never the less does not fully embrace Cessationism.
As a former Pentecostal I know all too well from experience how experience dictates how one should read Scripture in that system. Of course no Pentecostal would admit this, but that is the reality. This is one of the main issues that lead me out of Pentecostalism. I am not a person who believes that all Pentecostals are non-Christians. In fact I believe my old Pentecostal pastor was a very sincere Christian who believed what he taught and practiced was Biblical. I mention my old Pentecostal pastor mainly because of a truth he stated that God used to eventually lead me out (much to his chagrin I am sure) of the movement. He said during a sermon:
“Do not believe something just because I or someone else said it! Believe it only because the Word of God said it!”
I have been out of that movement for approximately 25 years now; and have not come to a firm position other than to say that I would be convinced of Cessationism if I became convinced that the Scripture passages that Cessationists use to prove that gifts such as prophecy, tongues and healing could be reasonably proven in my mind.
That being said, in practice I might as well be a Cessationist.
One of the main reasons for this is because of the subjective nature of Charismatic practices. When I was a Pentecostal I believed I spoke in biblical tongues. Three things influenced this, one Charismatic interpretation of relevant passages. Two, speaking in tongues made for a very pleasant feeling inside; thus making me feel I was closer to God the more I spoke in tongues especially privately. Three, influence of leaders and peers.
Another thing I think that bears mentioning is that of all the years I attended Pentecostal Churches, despite claims of great miracles such as healing. This included going to many healing crusades, I never saw even one miracle that could be proven beyond a doubt. Deep down at the time it bothered me, however the hype of these events made a person almost blind to this aspect.
As I said earlier I am not a full fledge Cessationist, but I thought I would include something written by a Cessationist that in my view I can totally relate to as a former Pentecostal.
http://the-highway.com/cessation_Edgar.html
August 25th, 2011 at 10:42 pm
I actually misspoke rather badly when I said “The notion that the gifts of the Spirit ended at the end of the 1st Century or with the death of the Apostles is foreign to history, ….”
I should have said not consistent with history. Sadly for all of us, the notion of the gifts ending is not foreign to history at all. I wonder how much it has held us back actually.
August 26th, 2011 at 12:26 am
I like this because it expresses some of my concerns here in the UK. The big problem for me is that if any ‘prophecy’is put on a level with scripture, indeed, if it is claimed to be for the whole church then 1.It means that for 2000 years the church of God has been impoverished because it has missed out on something (this new revelation) and 2. It is effectively saying that the Bible is still incomplete (Revelation 22 v 19 and others)
August 26th, 2011 at 6:07 am
@ Tom Hardy,
Your former pastor is a perfect example of the phrase I used earlier – “sincere but deluded”. And you also demonstrate the important concept that theology is a communal process – the beliefs and practices of those around us influence our understanding of the Bible. Likewise, tongue-speaking can produce psychological effects and religious experiences as you say.
But ultimately, if we can detach ourselves from the “hype” that has been part of pentecostalism since it began, we see that they are just chasing the wind and there is nothing there. I thank God you were able to do this.
@ John Field,
Interesting, I was just reading a piece of very poor writing by a UK charismatic pastor in which he was saying the same thing as you, namely that when prophets were lost, the church lost its sense of direction. Utter nonsense, as you say – the Bible gives us all we need.
August 26th, 2011 at 8:36 am
Btw, if we see the Apocalypse or the Book of Revelation and especially 22:18-19, and “the prophecy of this book”.. “this book”, “the book”.. in the sense of it’s being the end and close of the written canon? Note too, Deut.4:2. Then we have a sense of a real Biblical completion! But of course that would be also an exegetical question. It perhaps does not go that far, The “book” or (Gr. biblion, or “scroll”). However, in a more spiritual or insightful manner, the wording does seem to imply a canonical perspective. And Rev.22:18-19 looking back to Gen.3:3-4, does seem to provide the last biblical word on the subject. Just a thought?
August 26th, 2011 at 8:58 am
In again a spiritual sense, the Book of Genesis finds its complement in the Apocalypse! I don’t see how this can be doubted. As has been noted like “biblical bookends”! I think we do not appreciate the canonical sense enough, especially in the life of the Pilgrim Church. And again, even in the Reformed and Reformational sense, the historical or “Catholic” Church must be seen. But, then, hey I am an Anglican!
August 26th, 2011 at 10:05 am
Guys, I think the logic chain breaks down severely if you say that ANY prophecy is equal to scripture. if that’s true, what about the missing Corinthian books? What about Phillip’s daughters? What about the Corinthians who were prophesying (reasonable extrapolation from Paul’s counsel to them in chapters 12 and 14)? Why is all of that (and countless other prophecies) not included in Scripture? (e.g. Saul’s prophecies, those sent before Saul etc etc).
August 26th, 2011 at 11:17 am
I just wanted to add a few things to the conversation about what true classical Pentecostal teaching is.
We do not teach that Prophecy is equal to Scripture. We teach sola-scriptura also. All prophecies are to be tested by the Word. There maybe all types of teachings that float around our camp and may even get the public eye. But if the don’t practice “Sola-scriptura” I know they do so in error.
Also, many people have testimonies of bad experiences in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. Please understand many of these problems were also found in the New Testament churches also. The solution to the problem was not to reject the gifts but to intruct the churches. Probably an overused expression but “let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water” applies here.
Ian
August 26th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
Ian, I appreciate your saying that so much! Cessationists seem to forget that Corinthians was a MESS (actually they only remember this when it serves their argument it seems, although I am not referring to anyone in this discussion as there has been great respect both directions), yet Paul’s advice was not to get rid of the gifts….instead he instructed them to use them according to the guidelines he set up. In spite of the chaos they were experiencing, he told them to “eagerly desire spiritual gifts, but most of all that you should prophesy.” He also told them to “forbid not to speak in tongues” and “I thank the Lord that I speak in tongues more than you all.” Clearly Paul was for the gifts and saw them as an important part of the life of the church. I am not sure why we would want to reject this part of the Word of God. Are we trying to upgrade on Paul’s teaching?
August 26th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
I am a qualified cessationist, as I noted the so-called “sign gifts” and apostolic miracles. To my mind, tongues in the Christians prayer closet, can be mystical, but surely cannot – as has been mentioned, be really prophetic, or in anyway on the equality of Holy Scripture. I have noted here, that there has been little said for the aspect of Scripture Canon. This is simply very important for the Protestant & Reformational-Reformed believers, even those that claim a place for the gifts of the so-called “charisma”. For in reality even those of us that are toward cessation, also believe in the “charisma” of God, but just what that is and how that is defined and functions, is the real issue. At least to my mind. Again as the Apostle John writes..’In Word & Spirit’.
Finally, just the very nature of how these so-called gifts work and function, are again very questionable for me? At least in the classic and historic Churches. Also the theology of the Holy Spirit, and the whole NT pneumatology. Btw, a classic little book here to read, would be B.W. Bullinger’s little book: Word Studies on the Holy Spirit. It is still a good read! And always Christology and the Person of the Holy Spirit must be seen very closly! (John 14, etc.)
August 26th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
*closely (oh an old man’s typo’s)
August 26th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
Fr. Robert, what is your response to my former points? I will restate them here:
“Guys, I think the logic chain breaks down severely if you say that ANY prophecy is equal to scripture. if that’s true, what about the missing Corinthian books? What about Phillip’s daughters? What about the Corinthians who were prophesying (reasonable extrapolation from Paul’s counsel to them in chapters 12 and 14)? Why is all of that (and countless other prophecies) not included in Scripture? (e.g. Saul’s prophecies, those sent before Saul etc etc).”
August 26th, 2011 at 6:21 pm
Mark,
I would agree with your points that not every prophetic statement is or became Holy Scripture and Canon. And we can only guess about any lost Corinthian books? But we simply must allow what we have with St. Paul, and the NT alone, as Scripture and Canon. Note Acts 2:42, etc.
As to what was prophetic in the Corinthian Church in Paul’s time, this was direct ministry, but not part of the lasting Canon, as the Word of God as to that given through St. Paul the Apostle, etc.
August 26th, 2011 at 10:31 pm
I would like to add something else to this discussion that if I understand the ramifications properly contributes to how one understands 1 Cor. 14. In case one wonders why I mention 1 Cor. 14; I do so because it is one of the most widely used passages by those with Charismatic leanings, or some that may not speak in tongues, but never the less interpret the passage the same.
What I am referring to is that at the heart of how one interprets this chapter has to do with whether or not you are a Trichotomist, or a Dichotomist. Rather than try to explain, or give examples of this I thought it might be prudent to give a link to an article that does a lot better job at it that I can.
http://the-highway.com/tricho-charis_Brown.html
August 26th, 2011 at 11:17 pm
Correct Fr. Robert, which makes my point excellently. It is possible to have prophetic revelation from God that is not equal to the canon and is nonetheless subordinate to the canon. That was really my only point in asking you.
August 27th, 2011 at 10:23 am
[...] Read full article here [...]
August 27th, 2011 at 8:59 pm
Acts chapter 21, Agabus the prophet, speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit (“thus saith the Holy Ghost,” KJV) stated the fate that would befall Paul at Jerusalem.
Where is this sort of thing happening today?
August 28th, 2011 at 7:49 am
[...] Posted by Matt Wilcoxen on Aug 28, 2011 in Uncategorized | 0 comments Jason Goroncy has the post for today: a nice little poem about the Sabbath. NT Scholar C.K. Barrett recently passed away. Cliff Kvidahl pays tribute. Michael Horton asks, can someone be Reformed and Charismatic? [...]
August 28th, 2011 at 9:02 am
[...] 2: Michael Horton wrote another excellent piece on this debate, “Reformed and Charismatic?” where he argues, “I am convinced that non-cessationism is neither exegetically sound nor [...]
August 28th, 2011 at 8:53 pm
This is a useful and very interesting debate/discussion. My observation is that careful analysis of the issue of Charismatic continuation requires a willingness to walk into situations where these ‘gifts’ are being practiced and observe and evaluate them ‘in the field’. Why wouldn’t M. Horton for example go to a Sovereign Grace church and in that context take a closer look at how these gifts are being practiced in a setting which is theologically balanced? Because prophecy, tongues, and healing are experiential as well as theological matters they need to be considered from both a theological/exegetical perspective as well as up close. Its one thing to exegete the theology of evangelism, another thing altogether to share the gospel. Could it be that the ministry of prophecy (strengthening, comforting and encouraging words inspired by the Holy Spirit) occur regularly in all kinds of churches? And could it also be that in highly structured worship services where little opportunity for the body to ‘share’ that these kinds of things simply have no context in which they could happen. Doesn’t the order of church life in the 1st century (where apparently the number of spontaneous speakers had to be limited) differ greatly from the typical reformed church liturgy?
It seems to me two things need to happen. One, men like Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem, CJ, Gordon Fee as well as people like Michael Horton ought to sit together and talk for the purpose of crossing these bridges. Why not a small conference in which a group of foks from various perspectives with Reformed circles could graciously talk to each other? Second, theologically solid charismatics like Sam Storms and others need to have the courage to address the extremists like Bickle, Joyner, and Johnson. These men are spiritually dangerous and need strong challenge from those, like Sam Storms, and Grudem who won’t be discounted because of anti-charismatic bias.
August 29th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
Our Minister always taught us that Prophecy had two aspects to it – Fore telling; and Forth telling. The Fore-telling part (what we traditionally see in the OT prophets) ceased with Christ and the completion of the Canon. It will not return until the 2 prophets of Revelation come. The Forth – telling part however continues in as much as a gifted person (usually minister), by the Holy Spirit, gains insight into the meaning, interpretation, and application the Word of God by prayer, study and meditation. The Holy Spirit is thereby free to enlighten his mind so that he may bring a suitable word from the Lord to his listeners. You can study a passage of Scripture for 20 years and suddenly the Spirit will shed His light onto it and cause you to see it afresh or to really see what is being said (if that makes sense). That’s why we see Scripture as a living book – it’s alive by the Spirit – if we listen to Him through the normal Christian devotional disciplines of study, prayer, meditation, fasting etc.
August 29th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
[...] “As a former Pentecostal…..” Posted on 2011/08/29 by rockstarkp I have been out of the Pentecostal movement for approximately 25 years now; and have not come to a firm position other than to say that I would be convinced of Cessationism if I became convinced that the Scripture passages that Cessationists use to prove that gifts such as prophecy, tongues and healing could be reasonably proven in my mind. That being said, in practice I might as well be a Cessationist. One of the main reasons for this is because of the subjective nature of Charismatic practices. When I was a Pentecostal I believed I spoke in biblical tongues. Three things influenced this, one Charismatic interpretation of relevant passages. Two, speaking in tongues made for a very pleasant feeling inside; thus making me feel I was closer to God the more I spoke in tongues especially privately. Three, influence of leaders and peers. Another thing I think that bears mentioning is that of all the years I attended Pentecostal Churches, despite claims of great miracles such as healing. This included going to many healing crusades, I never saw even one miracle that could be proven beyo… [...]
August 29th, 2011 at 6:29 pm
no scripture says that God has stopped bestowing spiritual gifts. That being so, the doctrine of cessationism is an addition to Biblical doctrine and thus a contradiction of sola scripture. If you believe in the sufficiency of scripture, you do’t teach cessationism.
August 29th, 2011 at 6:33 pm
Also, historically Calvinists have not been cessationists. The Puritans for example, accepted the possibility of visions. An example in Cotton Mather’s Magnilia Christi Americana has the Puritan pastors testing a purported vision and rejected it not because they believed there were no such visions but because it lacked gospel content. Another well know, but shameful, example is the Salem Witchcraft trials. The basis for the trials were purported “spectral evidence” (i.e. visions). Cessationism is a product of modernity, not Reformed theology.
August 30th, 2011 at 5:11 am
Thank you for great discussions without calling each other devils……..I have seen too many proud people from both sides calling each other names…..I enjoyed reading different understandings of Reformed and charismatic
August 30th, 2011 at 8:56 am
In light of this discussion, I had reason to go back and read an old piece edited by the late John Robbins; “Evangelicalism, the Charismatic Movement, and the Race Back to Rome.” Many of the observations made in the piece, which was published in 1986 and was a revision of pamphlet published in 1972, are still just as valid and timely today, perhaps even more so. I was particularly interested in the concluding paragraphs, so I thought I’d share them here:
Armed with the objective truth of justification by faith alone, the Reformation gave the “man of sin” a “deadly wound.” In breaking the stranglehold of papal thought, it set the nations free from papal domination (see Revelation 13:3). But the prophecy of Revelation clearly foretells a restoration of the power of the ancient church to dominate the minds and enslave the consciences of men. The prophet declares:
And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from Heaven to Earth in the sight of men. He deceived them that dwell on the Earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the Earth that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live (Revelation 13:13, 14).
”Fire…from Heaven…in the sight of men” is an astoundingly accurate picture of contemporary religion caught up in the fires of false revivalism and the charismatic movement. Fire is the favorite symbol of the charismatic movement-and it is the symbol God uses to describe that movement because it is a counterfeit outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It is not really fire from Heaven, but it appears to be fire from Heaven. It is “fire…from Heaven…in the sight of men.” But by its influence it will cause “the Earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed” (Revelation 13:12).
The last days are to be marked by great religious deceptions. Working in the guise of “fire…from Heaven” (the baptism of the Holy Spirit), “the spirits of devils” will “go forth unto the kings of the Earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of the great day of God Almighty”(Revelation 16:14; see also 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12).
Already it is considered blasphemy to speak against the supernatural workings within the charismatic movement. A spirit of boastful certainty and arrogant intolerance has often been manifested by those who “have the spirit.” The preoccupation with inward experience is leading multitudes back to the religious philosophy of the Dark Ages and the medieval church. The Vatican knows the score. It reads what is to be. Many Protestants seem to be as paralyzed as Melanchthon was when he did not know whether or not to speak out against the spiritualistic fanatics who came to Wittenberg while Luther was hidden in the Wartburg Castle. It was this issue that led the great Reformer to come out of hiding and to risk his life. Cried the “spirit-filled” leaders on being granted an interview with Luther, “The Spirit! The Spirit!” The Reformer was decidedly unimpressed. “I slap your spirit on the snout,” he thundered. He saw that the great truth of justification by faith alone was diametrically opposed to these “German prophets,” as he styled them.
We have now come to the time when the issues of the sixteenth century have to be fought out again. This time the conflict will be more severe, and it will be final. Roll up the old denominational boundary lines. There is going to be are grouping of the religious world. On the one side there will be a grand union of Roman Catholics, pseudo-Protestants, and Pentecostals in what appears to be a movement for the conversion of the whole world. On the other side there will be a movement to restore the everlasting Gospel in its pristine purity and power. The Gospel will triumph. Though Antichrist may be victorious for a moment, his doom is sure. One little word shall fell him.
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/053a-EvangelicalismtheCharismaticMovement.pdf
August 30th, 2011 at 9:45 am
Sean,
This isn’t the 16th century, and speaking for myself at least, the Pope is not the antichrist! I don’t follow papal doctrines myself. But again, the central doctrine of the Church is not so much the proper mechanics of how one is justified, as the One who justifies: God In Christ!
“Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love (11/2).” (Westminster Assembly, Westminster Confession of Faith, 58.)
August 30th, 2011 at 10:17 am
@ Robert. A denial of JBFA and imputation is a denial of Jesus Christ and his cross work. The Scriptures know of only one soteriology, so mechanics are not as irrelevant or elastic as you seem to think. All others schemes of salvation are by definition “false gospels” along with the “false christs” they represent. But your comments do confirm the point of the above mentioned piece along with its conclusion, so thank you.
August 30th, 2011 at 10:17 am
Btw, I love the 16th Century Reformers and Reformation! But the principle of the Reformation is what we seek always: The Church seeking to ever Reform itself, by the Spirit and Word of God. ‘Spirit & Truth’!
August 30th, 2011 at 10:28 am
Yes, Spirit and the Word of God. There is no former without the latter and the Spirit never speaks apart from the Word, despite the delusions of Charismatics pretending to be Reformed and men like Discoll who see things (evidently only sexual things).
August 30th, 2011 at 10:50 am
@Sean,
I am not playing fast and loose with either the JBFA or Imputation! And I agree about seeking biblical and theological precision, but in reality we can only but seek for this definiteness. All human theology is subject to fallibility, and as John Frame reminds us.. even our best confessions must also be subordinate to the Holy Scripture! For myself again, I am quite amazed at the elasticity of Sacred and Holy Scripture, and even the great Reformed Creeds! And we must always factor in God’s great Mystery! The Church ‘Catholic & Reformed’ is always moving soundly and surely toward its glory! (Eph. 3:20-21)
August 30th, 2011 at 11:04 am
Sadly “delusion” is had not only with the so-called charismatics (at times), but can fall prey to any of us, if we push our will and ideas beyond both Church & Scripture. The essence of heresy is self-will, and pressing beyond both Church & Scripture. We must be humble in our opinions, especially in both Holy Scripture and Holy Church! The Reformers were Churchmen, and so must we be.
August 30th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Hi Sean,
You: “the Spirit never speaks apart from the Word”.
And where does the Word say that?
To propose that the omnipotent Lord of the universe will never say anything other than what He’s inerrantly inspired in scripture — while it may sound like it is honoring scripture — is a radical thing to say about God. How is it not functional Deism? And if you can’t find it in scripture, it’s a self-denying proposition.
Cessationism is a denial of sola scriptura because it’s not found in scripture; it’s an assertion of experirence, ironically.
August 30th, 2011 at 2:09 pm
Actually, cessationism is a necessary inference from Scripture. Horton gave some good arguments from Scripture above and I think it is proved from 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (even if Horton thinks it is inconclusive). Of course, Charismatics wrongly believer the Lord continues to speak to them new revelations daily and reject sola Scriptura along the way while feigning to uphold it. As the prophet said, “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”
August 30th, 2011 at 5:06 pm
I would agree that with the Canon of the NT, that the Lord who is Himself, both the Logos and Rhema.. the Text is the place of the Holy Spirit’s sola Scriptura. The Church Catholic can have no other authority!
August 30th, 2011 at 8:59 pm
>>>>no scripture says that God has stopped bestowing spiritual gifts. That being so, the doctrine of cessationism is an addition to Biblical doctrine and thus a contradiction of sola scripture.<<<<
The supernatural acts of Jesus and the Apostles were documented in the Scriptures. Without impugning sola scriptura, please tell me where I can examine and document the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in operation today?
Wouldn’t it be much simpler to argue with Dr. Horton by saying, “Look here . . . here’s someone that has been raised from the dead?” Or, “Over here is someone who lost a leg in Afghanistan but now he’s been made whole. There is your evidence, Dr. Horton!”
In the first century, the Church began with the words, “The tomb is empty come and see.” Why is it so hard in the 21st century to produce evidence of such things?
August 31st, 2011 at 5:48 am
Hi Sean, 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 says that when Christ (the perfect whom we’ll see face to face) comes then (THEN!) the imperfect gives will pass away. Horton is wrong; the text isn’t inconclusive: it clearly refers to the return of Christ. (Piper has exegeted it closely to this effect. Even John MacAuthur doesn’t interpret 1 Cor. 13 that way; it’s simply not a legitimate interpretation of the text to say “the perfect” is the canon.) Further, it would make no sense for a living Apostle, like Paul writing scripture, to say that when he is dead and no longer able to clarify what he meant, that then the “perfect” has come.
Paul, you miss the point. Scripture doesn’t say the gifts will pass away before Christ’s return. Therefore, you are adding to Biblical doctrine by your doctrine of cessationism. Therefore, you seem to believe in scripture plus your philosophy, not sola scriptura. You can examine the on-going works of the Spirit by scripture. Cessationism fails the scriptural test.
August 31st, 2011 at 7:46 am
@John. So, let me see if I get this, knowledge will cease when Christ returns? We will not come to know anything more after Christ returns? Nothing new will be revealed to us throughout eternity? Really? That is just one thing that necessarily follows if the text is a reference to the Christ’s return. I suppose all communication will end too because Paul tells us tongues too will cease as well. In addition “to teleion” or “the prefect” is a neuter word meaning the completed thing which would be a very odd way for him to refer to Christ. Interestingly, I believe “to teleion” is used 18 times in Scripture and not once is it used in reference to the Parousia. So, Piper and Mac are wrong. In this case Jonathan Edwards was correct. I can live with that.
Finally, Paul’s point above is spot on and is central to Warfield’s mostly historical study in The Cessation of the Charismata (Warfield was a man who, like Luther, was “willing to die on the hill of cessationism” when confronted with the deadly assertions of the Enthusiasts and Anabaptists, something it seems the modern day Reformed men are unwilling to do).
August 31st, 2011 at 8:36 am
Sean,
In the main, I agree biblically and exegetically with you, and it appears Jonathan Edwards; and that would be St. Paul also!
And as I have said, we who believe in cessation, by a biblical degree, surely too believe in God’s “charisma”, which is in “Spirit and truth”, in the Logos and Rhema of God. I think here too it would be a good place to insert the truth and reality of Christ incarnate still somehow in His visible & historical Church. But this Church is always a pilgrim body on earth and in this life. Again, this is part of St. Paul’s stewardship of the Mystery, as we see in Ephesians chapters 2 & 3, etc.
August 31st, 2011 at 9:41 am
Sean, are you not being inconsistant with the way you’re arguing there?
Surely you can’t dismiss “when the perfect comes” being a reference to Christ because knowledge won’t cease when Christ returns and then, in the same breath, turn around and argue that “when the perfect comes” refers to the closing of the canon? Doesn’t your own logic blows up your own position? After all, using your same logic, knowledge clearly did not cease when the canon was closed either.
If you’re going to use that argument against a non-cessasionist position, then it’s got to be logically consistant with your alternative yet it doesn’t support your view either. As we all know, “inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.”
The “knowledge” that’s being talked about in 1 Cor 13:8 is clearly referring to the “knowledge” that’s being described back in the previous chapter at 1 Cor 12:8. I don’t think what it’s talking about there is general knowledge (in terms of intelligence, etc) I think it’s more helpful to understand it in terms of knowledge of God (i.e. in terms of certainty of his existence that we come to experience after being born again.) Before Christ returns, we only have partial knowledge of God which is revealed to us in different amounts at the grace of God (v9 “For we know in part..”). However when Christ does return, that partial knowledge passes away as we will all have fuller knowledge as His glory is revealed to all.
But then again, what do I know, I’m just a mere pup in Christian terms.
August 31st, 2011 at 11:32 am
@Alisdair I don’t see how I’m being inconsistent, but I think you’re right in referencing 1 Cor. 12:8 because I think that is how we should understand the use of the word “gnosis” in 13:8. Knowledge in this sense is a “message of knowledge” revealed by the Spirit. Such revelatory knowledge will cease when the perfect thing or completed thing comes; i.e., the complete and closed canon. It doesn’t follow that new revelatory knowledge won’t resume when Christ returns at the Parousia, which is why that interpretation fails. God has spoken and has revealed his mind to us in Scripture which is now closed and has been with the passing of the last Apostle. Which is why Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance.”
Constantly Charismatics claim to speak new words of God which they claim was given to them by the Holy Spirit, but Jesus tells us not to believe them. So who do you want to believe, Jesus or Mark Discoll?
Also, let me ask, do you believe that the canon is closed? If yes, then if God continues to reveal himself in messages of knowledge revealed by the Spirit to men today then wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that canon is not closed?
August 31st, 2011 at 11:56 am
Hi Sean,
So, to take your approach, you’re saying knowledge already ceased with the close of the canon? Right? Did it? It certainly makes more sense to say that “knowledge” and talking will cease with Christ than it would be to say they ceased with the canon, as would be necessary if you applied your reasoning to your own argument. You’ll find that the absurdity of your reasoning arises from the untenability of your position. If you restricted yourself to doctrines actually taught in the Bible, you won’t find yourself making such ludicrous statements. And you wouldn’t be arguing for cessationism.
“The perfect” is someone we see “face to face”, how do we see the canon face to face? Also, the perfect is someone who will “fully” know us (1 Cor. 13:8ff). How can the canon fully know us? Also, when the perfect comes, then we will fully know? If we fully knew now, we wouldn’t be having this disagreement. The argument from the gender of the word only works on people who don’t know Greek. “Parousia” is a feminine word. So who is it referring to? Mary?
The Lord Jesus did not tell us not to believe any prophetic message. He told us not to believe false ones. The very fact that He didn’t issue a blanket statement warning against all prophetic gifts suggests that some kind of prophetic gift continues.
As for Edwards, he was a defender of experiences with the Spirit. The Puritans before him believed in the possibility of visions from God.
August 31st, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Indeed, the essence of “knowledge” in the text of 1 Cor. 13:8, is that this kind of “knowledge” will come to an end! I agree with Sean. And the “perfect” is “when completion” comes. It seems to be some kind of contrast of childlike or childhood and adulthood, with verses 11 and 12. But too we should note in 2 Cor. 3:17-18, that there is full freedom, and yet still we are “being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” This whole reality here is the Lord and the Spirit. And for us now, it is the fulness of the NT text and revelation! There can really be no other!
August 31st, 2011 at 12:26 pm
Even if there are sign-gifts still, and other so-called miracles, of which we can but give supposition generally, the ascendancy is both Christ above, and the Spirit here with and in us now, but through the Canon of the whole of the Holy and Sacred Scripture! And we must not forget the historic yet pilgrim Church. We are always turned toward the Lordship of Christ! We must not get lost looking at the trees rather than the forest. The bigger picture is always Christ, the Spirit.. and the Church!
August 31st, 2011 at 12:59 pm
Hi, Actually there’s no category in scripture of “sign gifts”. That’s a category foisted onto the list of the gifts of the Spirit (likely be cessationists) to isolate the ones they arbitrarily have decided have ceased.
But, I agree, “The bigger picture is always Christ, the Spirit.. and the Church!” And Christ has given us His Word (the Prophets and Apostles) who tell us of the gifts of the Spirit, which He’s given to build up the church. The Word tells us to encourage the on-going use of all the gifts, especially those that build up the church.
August 31st, 2011 at 1:09 pm
First, if my position is as untenable as you claim then it should be easy to demonstrate instead of merely asserting that it is. Second, you ask “How can the canon fully know us?” Paul is using figures of speech. James uses similar image of Scripture as a mirror in James 1:23,24; “For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.” Paul is talking about seeing us fully in the light of Scripture and not just in light of portions of Scripture which is all Paul’s audience had since the canon had still not been completed at the time of his writing.
You claim the Lord “tell us not to believe any prophetic message. He told us not to believe false ones.” Actually, that’s not what the passage says. But, and for the sake of argument, how do you know true prophetic messages from false ones?
Charismatics generally claim that all prophecies are to be tested by the Word. The problem with this is that there are many so-called “prophetic” words that cannot be tested, in the sense that they don’t necessarily contradict Scripture. For example, not long ago I heard a preacher who is frequently on TBN claim that the Holy Spirit told him that in order for people to get the “full blessing” (whatever that is) they needed to give $759.65 to his ministry (I don’t recall if that was the exact amount, but it was exact to the penny and it was in the hundreds of dollars). Of course, he assured his listeners that if people give something less they would get a “partial blessing” Now, did the Spirit really tell this man this? What if people gave the full amount (I tried to call but the lines were busy so I’m assuming some were in fact giving) and did claim to have received the “full blessing”? Or, if they gave less, claimed to be be blessed nonetheless? Was the preacher telling the truth when he claimed the HS told him to ask people for $759.65? Do we really need to be agnostic about such things?
But what about Driscoll saying he “sees things” and then goes on to describe early sexual abuse in someone he is counseling that turns out to be correct. He even tells of seeing an adulteress’ sex partner, right down to the color of the guy’s hair, height, and the sex act they performed. Of course none of this can be tested against Scripture. Does the fact that it turned out to be correct mean it was the Holy Spirit that revealed these things to Driscoll? Why couldn’t it have been one of those demons he’s on speaking terms with? How is Driscoll in his counseling sessions any different from the TBN preacher who claims to have been told to request a specific dollar amount in order for people to receive their “full blessing”?
The only test I can think of is that Driscoll is stretching the meaning biblical discernment. IMO what he represents is quite the reverse. How do Charismatics propose we’re to test these? Do they say if Driscoll turns out to be in error, even once, that he should be killed per Deu 18:20? In my experience they just shrug it off as if he one speaking in the name of God had just made small error, *even though they claimed to be speaking the word of the Holy Spirit.*
So, my question is what is the test in these kinds of situations? Why believe Driscoll and not Mr. TBN? Or, do you just believe both and write a check?
As for Edwards, indeed he did think the awakening was, at least initially, a work of the Spirit until later on when he started to question some of these “conversions” and decided to gate the Supper. He then found himself kicked out of his own church by these so-called new “converts.” He came to see that the “state of religion” in New England was worse after the so-called “awakening” than it was before it. So, Edwards is not the champion of your cause as you suppose.
August 31st, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Sean, so when John says that when we see Him we will be like HIm, he is using a metaphor? There are too many Scriptures about seeing God face to face to support your metaphor conclusion.
August 31st, 2011 at 2:15 pm
@Scott. What passage in John are you referring to? There is no “Him” in the Corinthians passage. There is, however, and as previously mentioned, an it.
August 31st, 2011 at 2:18 pm
@Scott. So do you also think Paul was actually referring to his own childhood or could it be perhaps a metaphor for the NT church in its infancy?
August 31st, 2011 at 2:26 pm
John,
Yes, certainly we must make some interpretive decisions quite often in our understandstanding of Scripture. And as I have said, I lived thru the early years of the charismatic movement in both the Catholic Church, and even with some Anglicans. At best, the gift of tongues could be mystical and for one’s prayer time now. But I don’t see any other biblical allowance myself, with the Canon and full Text of Holy Scripture. I know this issue splits many Christians, but simply the Christian has no other lasting dividing line, than the Word of God!
Btw, I can speak in tongues myself, but again, I don’t do so very often, and it is only really in my so-called prayer closet. So, I am not just a negative cessationist, but more again of a qualified one. I speak to my own personal aspect, for I don’t find Christians really engaging this issue theologically, and intellectually often. And quite often people make subjective judgments first and foremost on this subject. Also the history of the Church seems to go negatively for the idea.
We can hear St. Paul again, “Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognise this, he is not recognized. So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order.” (1 Cor.14:36-40, ESV)
August 31st, 2011 at 2:50 pm
Yeah, Sean, this text of Paul in 1 Cor. 13:11, simply must be seen metaphorically. The context demands this. Paul is giving an argument for reality of verses 8-9-10.
August 31st, 2011 at 2:53 pm
Hi Sean,
I did prove your position was untenable. So I guess you believe knowledge and talking have ceased with the close of the canon. ok.
In James, James doesn’t say the Word sees us but that we can see ourselves accurately with it. That’s a valid figure of speech. Your interpretation of 1 Cor. 13 requires us to believe that Paul is saying that the completed canon knows us fully, has a “face” we can see, that he is ascribing characteristics of a conscious person to the canon; etc. It makes no sense. Not to mention that you require us to believe Paul is making reference opaquely (in your view) to something nowhere else explicitly taught in scripture, when the doctrine of the parousia was common and widespread, Also, pneuma is neuter. So do you deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit?
Your objections to so-called prophesies that cannot be tested with scripture, is no different than any other proposal, either from science, conversation, observation, etc., that proposes things that can’t be directly tested with scripture. So do you really not believe that the eternal, infinite God is not communicating anything more at all since the close of the canon?
Your statement that Driscoll is on speaking terms with demons is simply slanderous.
I know of no place that Edwards thought the spiritual state of New England was worse after the Awakening (and as a result of it). If you can produce such an explicit statement, please do so immediately (with all proper bibliographical information). Be careful, I have a Ph.D. in church history, focusing on the Puritans. If you can’t produce such a statement, please repent of lying and misrepresenting history.
I don’t think it is profitable trying to correct you anymore. You don’t appear to be seriously reading those you are interacting with and make absurd statements (like about “knowledge” ceasing without reading “knowledge” in context.) Robert is much more reasonable.
August 31st, 2011 at 4:11 pm
@John. You haven’t proved anything. Assertion is not an argument. You haven’t exegeted the passage in dispute in the slightest. In addition, I have not slandered Driscoll and you need to listen to Discoll’s lecture above. You also need to study more Edwards (he is almost always profitable). Finally, it’s good that we end here as you have clearly avoided all of my direct questions to you. FWIW I have a long experience in Charismatic circles and attended an Anglican (something I’m sure Robert will appreciate
Charismatic church for a number of years in Darien, CT lead by Terry Fullam (you can read about him and his church in “Miracle in Darien”). Beyond that, some in my immediate family are still in bondage to Charismatic false doctrines.
I would still like to know, even if you won’t answer, how Christians can discern complete frauds like Mr. TBN and the Benny Hinns and Pat Robertsons in the world from the so-called legit guys like Driscoll? Is there a method? Do you or any other self-professed Charismatic have one? Is there even a difference between these men and their amazing claims; their amazing signs and wonders? After all, I’m sure Mr. TBN along with the more respectable sort of Charismatic, even those calling themselves “Reformed,” have bilked untold riches from windows and others who have bought into their super-spiritual delusions.
August 31st, 2011 at 4:34 pm
@John. In searching for a reference to support my comments concerning Edwards I came across this one re the extraordinary gifts:
“The ordinary sanctifying influences of the Spirit of God, are the end of all extraordinary gifts, as the apostle shows, Eph iv. 11,12,13 . . . God communicates his Spirit only in that more excellent way of which the apostle speaks, viz. charity or divine love . . . **The apostle speaks of these gifts of inspiration as childish things, in comparison of the influence of the Spirit in divine love.”**
August 31st, 2011 at 6:05 pm
Sean,
That is a nice quote from Edwards! I am amazed how people move from the central reality of the Biblical Text itself, for other supposed ground. Certainly the Word was or became en-fleshed: Incarnate, but the life of Christ was also given in active obedience upon the Cross for the life of the Church, the Body of Christ! Here Christ died for His elect and chosen people. Again certainly, we are in some real sense, living letters ourselves.. having and living in “the Spirit of the living God”, ourselves the redeemed of the Lord, with the Spirit Himself upon the “tablets” of our human hearts! (2 Cor.3:2-3) Again HE alone is both the Logos and the Rhema! And this can only be Biblical Revelation! In a broken and fallen world, and ourselves still, even as redeemed subject to it, the ‘already but not yet’, we cling to our Mediator: Christ Jesus!
August 31st, 2011 at 6:13 pm
*active & passive obedience
August 31st, 2011 at 7:12 pm
Hi Sean,
It’s moved on since I last posted but I wanted to reply to you anyway. You were being inconsistent, I’m afraid. The objection you raised to the non-cessationist position turned out to be an even bigger objection to your own position, as John has helpfully explained several times above.
When you say “Assertion is not an argument” I agree with you 100%. You also said, “Knowledge in this sense is a “message of knowledge” revealed by the Spirit. Such revelatory knowledge will cease when the perfect thing or completed thing comes; i.e., the complete and closed canon.” I would point out that this is where you also made a mere assertion. You’re making an assumption (based on your experience or your tradition) and asserting your assumption is correct, without actually proving it or demonstrating it from the scriptures. That’s not exactly strong exegesis either now, is it?
Jesus’s warning in Matthew 24 has no relation to whether the canon of scripture is closed or not. Presuming I’m around to see them, I’m expecting the great signs and wonders of these false prophets to be much greater and much more wonderful than any of the snake-oil swindles we see and abhor on “Christian” TV. (Oops, careful, I almost slipped into prophecy there.) I share your hatred of the blasphemous mockery that is much of Christian TV, and I’m sure almost everyone reading this blog does too. It’s a sad indictment that so many gullible people are led astray into thinking this false teaching bears any resemblence to genuine Christianity. By God’s grace I live the UK so don’t encounter much of it (small mercies). What were you doing watching it anyway?
Sean said, “how do you know true prophetic messages from false ones?”
1 Thes 5:20 and Deut 18:22 and Deut 13:1-3 are all fairly clear and provide a sound basis for evaluating prophecy. It’ll be 100% accurate AND it will accord exactly with scripture AND it will not lead you astray towards another God.
Sean said, “Was the preacher telling the truth when he claimed the HS told him to ask people for $759.65? Do we really need to be agnostic about such things?”
No, he was wrong and no, we should not be agnostic. It’s a little concerning that you want to resort to rhetoric like this in what I would take to be a serious conversation between brothers. Surely this is not even a contentious point? The Mr TBNs and Benny Hinn’s of this world rather obviously fail to measure up to the yardstick of scripture, don’t they? If in doubt, see 1 Tim 6:8-10 – “But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.”
Sean said, “Does the fact that it turned out to be correct mean it was the Holy Spirit that revealed these things to Driscoll?”
On it’s own, no, not necessarily. I’d always start from a skeptical viewpoint and test it. Did it turn out to be true? Does it match with scripture? Does it lead to the one true God? One things for sure, if he’d been wrong, it wouldn’t have been from the Holy Spirit, would it? When ever the Apostle Peter can be influenced to say something by Satin, I think we all need to test everything by the book.
“So, my question is what is the test in these kinds of situations? Why believe Driscoll and not Mr. TBN? Or, do you just believe both and write a check?”
Come on, Sean. It’s not a serious question. Aren’t we in danger of straying into the realms of the ridiculous here? Isn’t that a bit of a silly comparison? Are you really saying you can’t distinguish between Driscoll and Mr TBN. If you can’t then I’d certainly recommend praying for more of the gift of discernment, but I don’t believe for one second that you, or anyone else reading this conversation can’t discern the difference immediately.
It seems from reading back through the latter parts of this thread, you seem determined to enforce a strict binary choice – it’s all or nothing. I’m wondering aboout the wisdom of that approach? I can see why you have such a strong reaction against the Charismatic Church when some of your immediate family are “in bondage to Charismatic false doctrines.” That’s got to be tough and it’s got be concerning. Look, I share your revulsion at some of the nonsense that happens in Charismatic churches. I think they run a real danger of being deceived by trickery and I suspect there’s a huge pressure in there to fake things like tongues, and to “perform” to show you are “in the Spirit.” etc. I don’t know enough about them and it’s not something I’m comfortable with myself. Heck, I still think it’s weird when I see someone raise their arms when singing. I just can’t bring myself to do it (but that just may be because I’m Scottish and we don’t do emotion!) However, I can’t help wondering if you’re confusing two seperate things.
It seems to me like you are letting your understandable dislike of Charismatic Churches and, their warped theology, cloud your judgement on the issue of charismatic (with a small c) gifts? You do seem to be rather determined to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. If there’s any pattern we can see from scripture, it’s that sometimes the truth is simple and obvious and at other times it’s more nuanced, requiring us to work harder and look more closely to see it. I think the same applies when it comes to spiritual gifts. I believe (due to my personal experience) that the gifts continue, but not in the way or at the level that some of the Charismatic Churches teach (but don’t all the best lies contain some element of truth?) I appreciate you may not have had any personal experience of the charismatic gifts – that does not mean you are not a Christian and that also does not mean that they do not exist. I’d recommend praying for them, repeatedly.
When it comes to witnessing to your family, what’s the only thing that’s going to open their eyes to change their point of view? What’s going to be the best approach you could take to assist the Holy Spirit in that task? If those family members have had some limited experience or insight into the gifts, they could easily be struggling to know what to do with it. If you keep butting heads with your family members by insisting that gifts don’t exist, as you are on here, is that going to provide some fruitful means that the Holy Spirit will use to change them? We’d both agree that theology matters, so why not help them to see the light on some of the other points of reformed theology. Perhaps that might offer a more constructive approach? If it was me, I’d be wanting to try to help them understand spritual gifts in light of sound reformed theology, and how to interpret scripture consistantly. Would you prayerfully consider trying this?
Sean, you asked me,”do you believe that the canon is closed?”
I’d absolutely agree that the canon of Scripture is closed.
You also asked, “If God continues to reveal himself in messages of knowledge revealed by the Spirit to men today then wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that canon is not closed?”
No, these two points don’t follow. I agree that the main way that God reveals himself is through scripture, but to say that it’s necessarily the only way and to insist that personal revelation does not happen is going too far. Does everyone experience personal revelation, nope, but some most certainly do. I believe God is still active in the world and He still raises people up that He want to raise up, and He still inspires people to write what he wants them to write and say what He wants them to say in order to achieve the ends that He wants to achieve. Would I class this sort of personal revelation as scripture? Nope, and I guess we’ll never truly know what He has inspired this side of eternity. The Bible is sufficiant for the purposes of scripture, but it’s also been given to us in the way that it was so that we can have an absolute and independent way of verifying if personal revelation or spiritual interaction is from on high, or from the pit. That’s why sound consistant theology is absolutely essential.
Sean, I don’t know about you but once I’m in eternity, I’m looking forward to reading new parts of the canon – things like the Book of Alisdair, or the Book of Sean. I want to know all the ways the God has been active in my life, not just for the 40 years before I was born again, but for the generations before that ultimately led to all the life experiences that I’ve had. I want to know about things like why the only two churches I just happened to attend of “my own free will” that were in different parts of my country, just “happened” to have been originally planted over 600 years before by the same individual man of God. I want to know about things why my choosing a password at random 15 years ago, came to have a level of significance that was only revealed by the Holy Spirit last month. I don’t know about you, but in eternity, I’m expecting the canon to be expanded rather dramatically as God reveals his glory through revealing what he’s done in the myriad lives of His untold number of born-again believers.
August 31st, 2011 at 8:03 pm
>>>>Paul, you miss the point. Scripture doesn’t say the gifts will pass away before Christ’s return.<<<<
I don’t remember suggesting that Scripture said the gifts will pass away before Christ’s return.
What I have said many, many times is simply, show me these supernatural gifts in action somewhere on planet earth, TODAY.
If you can, then the debate shifts to something like, “is this the work of the devil or is it of God?”
A person can go round and round and round and round about “tongues shall cease . . . when that which is perfect is come,” etc. I’m not arguing any of those things. I’m asking someone to produce evidence of the Spiritual Gifts operating on planet earth today. If the gifts are still in operation it ought not be too difficult to point to them. We are talking about something written about in Scripture that was outwardly visible to believer and unbeliever alike.
As I recall, this entire thread sprung from a few articles back about the politics of enthusiasm and how foolish the Church must appear at times to the unbeliever. Well, try suggesting to an unbeliever that the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit at made manifest today, without presenting any hard evidence and see what happens.
August 31st, 2011 at 10:39 pm
so are we to believe that demons are using people like Mark Dricoll to lead people towards Christ? I don’t even understand the argument here it is so convoluted. But I think John illustrated that your position is absolutely untenable (yes, I said it and now I will repeat his point to defend it). if “knowledge” is ANY knowledge as you are suggesting, then certainly this has not happened has it Sean? Certainly, MUCH knowledge has come forth in the past 2,000 years, so therefore your argument is self-defeating. Clearly Paul has in mind the “knowledge” he was speaking about in 1 Corinthians 12……I think Driscoll’s examples, and the examples we know of Spurgeon fall perfectly within that framework.
Once again I ask, is our relationship to be with God or with a book about God? I don’t understand how we can claim to have relationship with God, if our relationship is really just reading a book over and over but nothing beyond that.
Paul, the gifts are in operation all around the world. I have heard too many explicit stories of the gifts being used to bring people to Jesus to even begin to enumerate them. But let’s start with Spurgeon’s stories. What do you do with those?
August 31st, 2011 at 10:54 pm
Jesus gave us a clear standard….we are allowed to judge a tree by its fruit. We now know that a great many of those who are turning to Christ in the Middle East are doing so because of miracles, dreams and vision. I have heard that the accepted figure in the missionary world is actually about 50%. Whether or not that number is accurate, countless stories of people being led away from a false religion (purposely not using the name here to not alert anyone to this discussion unnecessarily) to Christ through dreams of Jesus appearing to them, or visions or miracles.
I know a man who was an atheist and had terrible arthritis in his late 20′s. He had some Christians offer to pray for him and he let them and was immediately healed after waking up for several years with his fists in balls and finding no relief. He turned his life fully over to God and 30 years later is still on fire for God. He is one of the most humble men I know and is incredibly solid in his walk with God. God healed his hands, his marriage and one other thing that I can’t recall currently. Those 3 miracles in his life changed him. He went back to the only church he knew, the Catholic Church, but God spoke to him and led him away from that after a year or two showing him that it was filled with false things. He is an evangelical who loves God with all of his heart. Now….we can either believe that demons weren’t happy to leave him an atheist so they began to “deceive” him into turning to God, or we can accept the more obvious conclusion that God spoke to him through miraculous means and called him to true faith in Christ. Why would we want to assume the former? It defies all logic and reason.
I myself was in a room with a girl once who God told me was demon-possessed. I didn’t believe it and didn’t believe it was God, but began to pray under my breath. She began to manifest a demon and started freaking out for the next 10 minutes. She was biting her fist, snarling at me and freaking out. I was praying so softly that a person right next to me wouldn’t have had a chance to hear me, but she was 8-10 feet away from me facing opposite me. Quite simply, she couldn’t have possibly heard my prayers and the nature of my prayers was to lift up Jesus as Christus Victor. Now….what possible reason would a demon have had to reveal that information to me? What evil purpose might this have served?
I also agree that the lines drawn between the gifts are hilariously arbitrary. The notion of “sign-gifts” or “supernatural gifts” are silly. All the gifts are supernatural and are from God. You either dispense with all of them, or you dispense with none of them. Trying to create categories that aren’t in Scripture for the purpose of neglecting some of the gifts is not reasonable except with the goal of eisegesis in mind.
September 1st, 2011 at 6:25 am
Sean, sorry for the delay, the passage i alluded to was 1John 3:2.
As to your question about children, I think Paul was referring to an individual christian’s maturity level. We will be mature in our knowing ( in all respects ) when we see Christ. The perfect refers to our perfect knowing/maturity when we know Christ fully at His full revelation to us in glory. That’s why it isn’t necessary for the “perfect” to be Christ but rather easily refers to perfect knowing that happens as we behold Him face to face.
September 1st, 2011 at 8:12 am
@Scott. Thanks for the verse. However, I think attributing the miraculous gifts to the church in its infancy, as Edwards has done, is superior if for no other reason than new revelatory knowledge will not cease when we behold Christ face to face.
I was looking over some of the arguments again, and there are many, in favor of Edwards minority position in Victor Budgen’s “The Charismatics and the Word of God” and came across the following quote from Judisch:
“Those who want ‘the complete thing’ of verse 10 to be the state of eternal glory argue that the first clause of verse 12 is referring to seeing Christ in a dim way throughout this life and that the second clause speaks of seeing Christ face to face in a literal sense in heaven. Such an interpretation is dubious, however, for two reasons. First, it takes ‘dimly’ (ainigmati) of the first clause figuratively, but takes the ‘face to face’ (prosopon pros prosopon) of the second clause literally; a more consistent approach to the intended contrast seems preferable. If we thought that the object of the verb blepomen (‘see’) where Christ, we should note that the concept of seeing Christ face to face occurs elsewhere in the Corinthian letters in a figurative sense (2 Cor. 3:19; 4:6). Second, however, supplying the object ‘Christ’ or ‘God’ or the like is a rather arbitrary procedure. Paul is talking about seeing someone in a mirror, whether dimply or face to face. And the face that one sees in a mirror is not the Lord’s, but one’s own (cf. James 1:23,24).”
Budgen continues…
“This is confirmed by the fact that a primary function of the completed, prefect revelation in the Scripture is to show us ourselves as we really are. It is given to explore the inner recesses of the heart: ‘The word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account’ (Heb. 4:12,13). It is by the Word that we know ourselves as we are fully known to God.” (81-81)
September 1st, 2011 at 8:41 am
@Mark from Austin writes: “so are we to believe that demons are using people like Mark Dricoll to lead people towards Christ?”
No, I don’t think Driscoll’s charismatic deviations lead anyone to Christ. The Gospel alone is the power of God unto salvation. I think men like Driscoll only put a respectable veneer on a dangerous and deceitful practice. Evidence of this would certainly be your minimizing the importance of justification which is by faith alone in your determination of who is and who is not a Christian. Rome must be thrilled.
You ask: “Once again I ask, is our relationship to be with God or with a book about God?”
Your question is faulty for there can be no relationship with another person, or in this case Persons, without knowing something about them and that presupposes that they reveal certain propositions about themselves. God has done so in His word. You want a relationship with God, study the Scriptures. It seems to me most people would rather have a relationship with a god of their own imagining. Again, and as Christ warned; “for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order, if possible, to lead the elect astray.” You have certainly seen many “signs and wonders,” but you are a bit too cavalier about those who have been taken in by obvious charaltans while excusing the less obvious ones and calling it “discernment.”
September 1st, 2011 at 9:38 am
I am in basic agreemwnt with Sean here, this whole thread has moved through too many layers! The issue is “signs and wonders” (sign gifts today) verses the Word of God, both the Logos and the Rhema. We are always cast upon the Text itself! Note, 2 Thess. 2:9-15, etc.
Finally, today the church is seeing apostasy on a scale the likes of which.. it has never seen! There is even a book out today, in evangelical circles, called: The Atheist Pastor, certainly an oxymoron to say the least! And the text of 2 Tim. 3:5 comes to mind. (note also, 2 Tim. 3:13).. and Paul exhorts them back to Holy Scripture, (14-17). No, we must draw our lines, and draw them biblically! (2 Tim. 2:15) When push comes to shove, we must find both our faithful pastors and teachers, especially today! (See too, 2 Cor. 2:14-17, noting verse 17!)
September 1st, 2011 at 10:30 am
@Alisdair Smith. I’ll try and make this brief, but you did write quite a bit:
>>“Jesus’s warning in Matthew 24 has no relation to whether the canon of scripture is closed or not. Presuming I’m around to see them, I’m expecting the great signs and wonders of these false prophets to be much greater and much more wonderful than any of the snake-oil swindles”
I never said it was a reference to the close of the canon. It is, however, a warning to Christians to beware of those coming in Christ’s name working signs and wonders. I don’t know how they can be more wonderful than those Driscoll describes in his lecture or those Mark from Austin has shared with us here. Further, I don’t think either Discoll or Mark are snake-oil swindlers, so I would call that a red herring.
>>“Sean said, “how do you know true prophetic messages from false ones?”
1 Thes 5:20 and Deut 18:22 and Deut 13:1-3 are all fairly clear and provide a sound basis for evaluating prophecy.”
Actually, you stopped way too short in your Deuteronomy citations. You left out the most important part; “But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death….”
>>“Sean said, “Was the preacher telling the truth when he claimed the HS told him to ask people for $759.65? Do we really need to be agnostic about such things?”
No, he was wrong and no, we should not be agnostic. It’s a little concerning that you want to resort to rhetoric like this in what I would take to be a serious conversation between brothers. Surely this is not even a contentious point? The Mr TBNs and Benny Hinn’s of this world rather obviously fail to measure up to the yardstick of scripture, don’t they?”
Well, of course they don’t measure up, that’s the point. But the same then holds for Driscoll and every other Charismatic and Pentacostalist preacher. Yet, you haven’t shown where or how the so-called “prophetic” word of the one is demonstrably false whereas the other is to be accepted. Why should we believe Driscoll but not Benny Hinn? Is it his haircut? I have known people who claim that Jesus healed them though Hinn’s ministry. I have no reason to assume they were lying. And, further, I live right down the street from Pat Robertson who sees God healing all sorts of unnamed people on his TV show every day. His claims are in no way different or more amazing than Driscoll’s with the exception that Pat sees people being healed of various physical maladies whereas Driscoll sees them having sex.
>>“Sean said, “Does the fact that it turned out to be correct mean it was the Holy Spirit that revealed these things to Driscoll?”
On it’s own, no, not necessarily. I’d always start from a skeptical viewpoint and test it. Did it turn out to be true? Does it match with scripture? Does it lead to the one true God?”
Do visions of people he’s counseling having sex or being molested match with Scripture? I don’t see how? I don’t see how his claims to “see things” are supported by Scripture at all? As for leading people to the one true God, that is a work that God accomplishes in the lives of His elect children even in spite of the errant doctrines of some preachers, even one as seemingly hip and relevant as Driscoll. After all, the Holy Spirit was given to lead his church into “all truth.” Sometimes even the best preachers can be a hindrance quite apart from their own good intentions. In this case I do think Driscoll is a hindrance and that the Charismatic movement is positively hostile to the truth and opens Christ’s sheep to all sorts of superstitious deceptions and deceits, even those done in the name of Christ and by the imagined power of the Holy Ghost.
>>“So, my question is what is the test in these kinds of situations? Why believe Driscoll and not Mr. TBN? Or, do you just believe both and write a check?”
Come on, Sean. It’s not a serious question. Aren’t we in danger of straying into the realms of the ridiculous here? Isn’t that a bit of a silly comparison? Are you really saying you can’t distinguish between Driscoll and Mr TBN. If you can’t then I’d certainly recommend praying for more of the gift of discernment, but I don’t believe for one second that you, or anyone else reading this conversation can’t discern the difference immediately.
I’m being dead serious. I cannot tell the difference between the miraculous wonders and signs Driscoll claims for himself with those of Mr. TBN. Is it because Mr. TBN put his vision in terms of dollars and cents? Since you accept ongoing prophesy, how do you know the HS didn’t tell Mr. TBN what he claims He did? What if someone coughs up the green and then finds that his failing business completely turns around and he now has more work and more money than he could ever imagine. Does this confirm Mr. TBN’s prophetic word? Or, is it a case of merely asserting the consequent because Mr. TBN asserts in the name of the HS the very thing he needs to prove from the Scriptures, which, I think you even you would have to agree, would be impossible. If that’s the case, and I think it should be, then Mr. TBN is no different from Driscoll in the slightest. But, I thought the Gospel was to free us from such superstitions? Instead, you say that I should pray for more of the “gift of discernment.” Is this a method? It seems to me that your solution is just as mystical and opposed to sound reason and the light of Scripture as is the one making the miraculous claim, even Mr. TBN.
>>”You also asked, “If God continues to reveal himself in messages of knowledge revealed by the Spirit to men today then wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that canon is not closed?”
No, these two points don’t follow. I agree that the main way that God reveals himself is through scripture, but to say that it’s necessarily the only way and to insist that personal revelation does not happen is going too far. Does everyone experience personal revelation, nope, but some most certainly do.”
The points I raise do follow and you admit as much when you say “that personal revelation does not happen is going too far.” Calling it “personal” doesn’t change the fact that God is said to reveal truths to you apart from and in addition to those He has revealed in Scripture which you also claim is closed. You can’t have it both ways. The historic Protestant position, as stated in the Westminister Confession 1:1 under the heading “What is Revelation,” put the situation this way:
Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence, do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet they are not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation: therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his Church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the holy scripture to be most necessary; **those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.**
I would hope you would notice a couple of things. First, God has used “divers manners” by which he revealed Himself and his will to the church. These different ways were no less revelation than Scripture itself. Second, with the close of the canon those “former ways” have now ceased. The above is what is meant by “sola scriptura.” Men like Driscoll, who call themselves Reformed, stand in direct opposition to the Reformed faith and take direct aim at the central doctrine on which all other doctrines rest.
September 1st, 2011 at 5:18 pm
@ Mark from Austin:
>>>>Paul, the gifts are in operation all around the world. I have heard too many explicit stories of the gifts being used to bring people to Jesus to even begin to enumerate them.<<<<
Mark–name just ONE. Better yet, just provide a link to a single manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit that can be scientifically examined.
The reason you cannot point to the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in operation today is because they are not in operation today. They have ceased.
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:23 am
[...] There is a new comment on the post “Reformed and Charismatic?”. http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2011/08/22/reformed-and-charismatic/ [...]
September 4th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
[...] Horse Inn – Reformed and Charismatic? – Dr. Horton tackles the subject very [...]
September 5th, 2011 at 3:08 pm
[...] For the Reformed Anglicans reading the following: so that we don’t have a repeat of a similar post of mine from last year, if you disagree with the following, please be so kind as to take it up with Dr Horton directly on this White Horse Inn post. [...]
September 5th, 2011 at 9:24 pm
Hi Sean,
Hope you had a good weekend, and church was nourishing for your soul. I for one needed rebuilding as the attacks came from all quarters last week.
I couldn’t let your last post go unanswered I’m afraid, but I think I’m beginning to understand where you’re coming from. Let me see if I can summarise what you’re contending fairly. You’re saying that someone like Driscoll is not reformed, and should not be called reformed, because he claims to have experienced incidences of personal revelation from God the Holy Spirit and that God doesn’t do that any more. You’re saying your understanding of the historic Protestant position is that the writers and signatories to the WCF share your belief that this type of direct revelation has ceased and this is demonstrated by the phrase, “those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.” And you’re saying that the doctrine of sola scriptura amongst other things teaches that scripture is the only way God chooses to communicate with his people today. And you believe that all this is central to the Reformed faith and that if someone disagrees they shouldn’t really be referring to themself as reformed.
I guess this is an important issue, isn’t it? If you’re correct I’d be less worried about Driscoll occasionally seeing visions, and more concerned about God speaking to him audibly when he was 19, telling him to, “Marry Grace, move to Seattle, plant a church and train men.”
I’m new here, so I don’t know who’s who yet, but is what’s Sean’s outlined what others on this board also believe about the meaning of Reformed?
Unfortunately, Sean, if we look closely at what you’re saying, there are a number of errors in your position and with what you’re painting the historic protestant beliefs to be. Here are the point’s where I’d disagree with you and I’d be interested in reading what others think.
THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT IN CLAUSE 1 OF THE WCF
********************************************
The first problem is that you’re ignoring the immediate context of what clause 1 says. The first sentence states that creation is enough to prove God exists but that it doesn’t tell us anything specific about *two* things that are essential for salvation: 1. who the one true God is, and 2. what His will for us is, i.e. what He expects of us. It’s important to note there are *two* issues and that’s the context in which you’ve then got to understand the next sentence which begins, “Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church.” What it’s saying there is confirming that God had *two* purposes behind revealing Himself in various ways to the prophets, etc. in order to resolve those *two* issues from the first sentence. God’s doing *two* things to give us the information we need to know for salvation; 1. God’s revealing Himself and 2. revealing His will. The rest of the paragraph explains why the Bible is essential, but the restriction at the end, “those former ways of God’s revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.” (the restriction that you are basing your whole case around) only deals with the second of God’s purposes. The WCF only claims that God only now reveals His will through scripture. It says nothing about the first purpose of revealing Himself. To claim that it does is to mis-read the text of the WCF.
THE WIDER CONTEXT OF CHAPTER 1 OF THE WCF
*****************************************
You’ve then got a second problem, haven’t you? Clause X of Chapter 1 of the WCF states, “The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.”
This paragraph specifically demonstrates that the historic Protestant position is the very opposite of what you claim. Not only does it shows that they expected to receive personal spiritual communication (enough to specifically include “private spirits” in the document) but also it confirms that they recognized that the only way to test those spirits was by comparing it to the Word of God in Scripture. That’s exactly the test that I outlined in my previous post above. To make it clear “The supreme judge by which … private spirits are to be examined … can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.” So your claim about the historic Protestant faith is erroneous.
SOLA SCRIPTURA
**************
I’m a bit worried about what I’ve inferred from your comment “The above is what is meant by “sola scriptura.”” Please correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be suggesting that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura means that God can reveal himself “only through Scripture.” That is the only logical conclusion that could be drawn from what you wrote but if I’m wrong about your understanding I apologise. If that is your understanding then I’m sorry to say, brother, but that is a complete error. Sola Scriptura means that Scripture alone is the final authority for the Christian when it comes to matters of faith and life. It has nothing to do with any supernatural means that God the Holy Spirit uses to interact with you.
Sean, the underlying assumption behind your whole argument is that God the Holy Spirit just doesn’t interact in that way with anyone any more to personally reveal Himself to an individual. I’ve demonstrated that it’s a position that not supported by the WCF. It’s not backed by scripture and it’s not the personal experience of people on this blog, including myself. It’s also logically fallacious. Now I agree with you that whenever someone says they’ve been spoken to by the Holy Spirit, we should immediately be on our guard and test it. There are lots of con-merchants out there but just because counterfeit money exists, it doesn’t mean the real stuff doesn’t. My point is that any personal revelation via the Spirit, be that prophecy or some other gift or personal direction, will always correspond with the scripture, not change it or replace it. There is no new revelation of God’s will in terms of life or faith, in terms of Holiness and salvation. There is no new or different teaching, there is only one gospel that saves.
Sean, I’m wondering if some of this disagreement is simply a confusion over what we’re meaning by the terms. At no point have I claimed God reveal truths to me “apart from and in addition to those He has revealed in Scripture.” Neither has Mark. When I talked above about personal revelation from God, I wasn’t meaning some kind of new revelation that’s equal to or seeks to change anything that’s revealed in scripture about God’s will. By personal revelation I’m talking about God personally revealing Himself to us and giving us personal direction to do particular tasks. I’m meaning the various different levels of experience of the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. At one level, it’s the way He reveals God’s truth to us when He opens our eyes to a thrilling new understanding of a passage of scripture. It’s how He communicates through those intimate little coincidences that He makes you and only you aware of giving them such personal significance to them that you know it’s His hand at work. But it’s also when He reveals why you’ve had the life experiences you’ve been given and how you are to use them. It’s when he gives you the interpretation of a particularly vivid dream you had over a year before. It’s when He’s prepared you for some task without you even realizing at the time you were being prepared and trained, but it becomes clear later. And yes, it’s even when He speaks audibly to you to ask you to do something specific. I’ve had that happen to me on several occassions – some minor, one major that I’m still working through – so I can understand exactly what Mark from Austin is talking about when he mentions that kind of direct communication, and it’s the same reason why I believe Mark Driscoll when he says God has spoken to him.
Now, if I, or Mark from Austin, or even Mark Driscoll (Hey I bet we’re both delighted to be mentioned in the same sentence, even if I had to write it myself!) has been given a different experience to you, is that something we can boast about? Not at all. It’s got nothing to do with anything about us, it’s purely down to the grace of God and His plan. To my mind, there is nothing intrinsically *more* supernatural about the Holy Spirit speaking audibly to someone today to provide an instruction or to deliver a prophetic word than making some verses come alive. It’s what the Holy Spirit does. Yet you seem to be insisting that while He can still do the latter, the former is somehow impossible, and I’ve got to insist that that is just not the truth.
Long post but necessary. Thanks in advance for reading it.
September 5th, 2011 at 9:33 pm
Sean, Short post this time
You wrote above: “Instead, you say that I should pray for more of the “gift of discernment.” Is this a method? It seems to me that your solution is just as mystical and opposed to sound reason and the light of Scripture as is the one making the miraculous claim, even Mr. TBN.”
Is this a method? The Apostle Paul, for one, seemed to think it was a valid one – Colosians 1:9 “And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all uspiritual wisdom and understanding,”
Using my sound reason to interpret that Scripture, I’d say it’s a prayer that will be effective, if that’s in God’s will.
September 6th, 2011 at 7:56 am
@Alisdair. I think your opening paragraphs sum up my position correctly and cessationism is the historic Protestant/Reformed position. I hardly think this is a matter of dispute. “Reformed charismatic” is an oxymoron for reasons I’ve already explained, not least of which because it undermines and controverts the doctrine of Scripture.
Now to a couple of specifics from your tome =:-) …
>> The first sentence states that creation is enough to prove God exists<>This paragraph specifically demonstrates that the historic Protestant position is the very opposite of what you claim. Not only does it shows that they expected to receive personal spiritual communication (enough to specifically include “private spirits” in the document) but also it confirms that they recognized that the only way to test those spirits was by comparing it to the Word of God in Scripture. That’s exactly the test that I outlined in my previous post above. <>I’m a bit worried about what I’ve inferred from your comment “The above is what is meant by “sola scriptura.”” . . . Sola Scriptura means that Scripture alone is the final authority for the Christian when it comes to matters of faith and life. It has nothing to do with any supernatural means that God the Holy Spirit uses to interact with you.<>Sean, the underlying assumption behind your whole argument is that God the Holy Spirit just doesn’t interact in that way with anyone any more to personally reveal Himself to an individual.<>Now I agree with you that whenever someone says they’ve been spoken to by the Holy Spirit, we should immediately be on our guard and test it. There are lots of con-merchants out there but just because counterfeit money exists, it doesn’t mean the real stuff doesn’t.<> My point is that any personal revelation via the Spirit, be that prophecy or some other gift or personal direction, will always correspond with the scripture, not change it or replace it.>>
Then you should denounce Dricoll because his “visions” do not correspond with the Scriptures at all. That is unless you think he can deduce even one of his so-called “visions” from Scripture.
>>There is no new revelation of God’s will in terms of life or faith, in terms of Holiness and salvation. There is no new or different teaching, there is only one gospel that saves.<>Sean, I’m wondering if some of this disagreement is simply a confusion over what we’re meaning by the terms. At no point have I claimed God reveal truths to me “apart from and in addition to those He has revealed in Scripture” . . . .>>
Do you believe Driscoll’s claim to revealed truths about the above mentioned sexual sins? If yes, then you do claim God reveals truths “apart from and in addition to those He as revealed in Scripture.” Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
>>And yes, it’s even when He speaks audibly to you to ask you to do something specific. I’ve had that happen to me on several occassions – some minor, one major that I’m still working through – so I can understand exactly what Mark from Austin is talking about when he mentions that kind of direct communication, and it’s the same reason why I believe Mark Driscoll when he says God has spoken to him.>>
And this is, by definition, things which are “apart from and in addition” to those things which He as revealed in Scripture. So my statement stands. Not that I needed your confirmation, but I thank you nonetheless.
But, seriously, doesn’t this glaring contradiction in your own position cause you to reassess even a little?
September 6th, 2011 at 8:10 am
Sorry, some of the spacing above changed after I posted. I think it might have been due to separating your comments with arrows. So here it is again.
@Alisdair. I think your opening paragraphs sum up my position correctly and cessationism is the historic Protestant/Reformed position. I hardly think this is a matter of dispute. “Reformed charismatic” is an oxymoron for reasons I’ve already explained, not least of which because it undermines and controverts the doctrine of Scripture. Now to a couple of specifics from your, well, tome:
** The first sentence states that creation is enough to prove God exists**
The WCF doesn’t assert this at all. Creation does not “prove” God. Quite the reverse. The confession states that the “light of nature,” which is enough to render all men without excuse, but this does not constitute a proof. Consequently, your first argument fails.
Concerning WCF 1.10 you write:
**This paragraph specifically demonstrates that the historic Protestant position is the very opposite of what you claim. Not only does it shows that they expected to receive personal spiritual communication (enough to specifically include “private spirits” in the document) but also it confirms that they recognized that the only way to test those spirits was by comparing it to the Word of God in Scripture. That’s exactly the test that I outlined in my previous post above. **
Actually, you’ve done no such thing. I asked for a method by which we can judge Mr. TBN from Driscoll. Your answer to me was “praying for more of the gift of discernment.” This is not a method. Yet, neither Mr. TBN or Driscoll have said anything that necessarily contradicts Scripture (with the exception of 1 Cor. 13 properly understood) and in both cases what they’ve asserted may indeed turn out to be correct (and for reasons I’ve already explained). According to Charismatics the “test” seems to come down to a “feeling” or an intuition and whether or not the so-called “prophesy” turns out to be correct or leads someone to some imagined “greater appreciation of God,” but none of these so-called “tests” are the equivalent of, or should be confused with, judging truth claims against the “Holy Spirit speaking in the scripture.”
Now, if Driscoll or any pastor were to say the HS told him the Scripture teach X when in fact the Scripture do not teach X, then we could know Driscoll is in error. But the Scriptures do not say whether or not the woman sitting across from Driscoll in a counseling session had sex with a man in a hotel room that was not her husband. OTOH the Scriptures do say that if someone does not speak according to the “law and the prophets,” i.e., the Scriptures, then there is “no light in them.” Now there is a biblical method for you, admittedly not one you defend.
**I’m a bit worried about what I’ve inferred from your comment “The above is what is meant by “sola scriptura.”” . . . Sola Scriptura means that Scripture alone is the final authority for the Christian when it comes to matters of faith and life. It has nothing to do with any supernatural means that God the Holy Spirit uses to interact with you.**
You might be worried about me, but not half as worried as I am about you. WCF 1 is what is meant by *sola scriputra* and is enough to demonstrate that charismatics like Driscoll do not have a Reformed view of Scripture, even if he does hold to a Reformed soteriology. I’m thankful he has the latter, I just wish he had the former.
**Sean, the underlying assumption behind your whole argument is that God the Holy Spirit just doesn’t interact in that way with anyone any more to personally reveal Himself to an individual.**
Then you are seriously mistaken. Belief in the truths of Scripture IS the work of the Holy Spirit. As WCF 1.5 states, and after outlining a number of evidences concerning the truth of Scripture, “yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the word in our hearts.”
**Now I agree with you that whenever someone says they’ve been spoken to by the Holy Spirit, we should immediately be on our guard and test it. There are lots of con-merchants out there but just because counterfeit money exists, it doesn’t mean the real stuff doesn’t.**
Actually, you still have not demonstrated how to tell the con from the “real stuff.” So, as far as I can tell, and despite your many words, we’re right back where we started.
** My point is that any personal revelation via the Spirit, be that prophecy or some other gift or personal direction, will always correspond with the scripture, not change it or replace it.**
Then you should denounce Dricoll because his “visions” do not correspond with the Scriptures at all. That is unless you think he can deduce even one of his so-called “visions” from Scripture.
**There is no new revelation of God’s will in terms of life or faith, in terms of Holiness and salvation. There is no new or different teaching, there is only one gospel that saves.**
Well, I don’t know, I think saying that he sees that person X was molested as a child, or person Y had an affair right down to the specific details of what her lover looked like along with their choice in sexual positions, are new revelations.
**Sean, I’m wondering if some of this disagreement is simply a confusion over what we’re meaning by the terms. At no point have I claimed God reveal truths to me “apart from and in addition to those He has revealed in Scripture” . . . .**
Do you believe Driscoll’s claim to revealed truths about the above mentioned sexual sins? If yes, then you do claim God reveals truths “apart from and in addition to those He as revealed in Scripture.” Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
**And yes, it’s even when He speaks audibly to you to ask you to do something specific. I’ve had that happen to me on several occassions – some minor, one major that I’m still working through – so I can understand exactly what Mark from Austin is talking about when he mentions that kind of direct communication, and it’s the same reason why I believe Mark Driscoll when he says God has spoken to him.**
And this is, by definition, things which are “apart from and in addition to” those things which He as revealed in Scripture. So my statement stands. Not that I needed your confirmation, but I thank you nonetheless.
But, seriously, doesn’t this glaring contradiction in your own position cause you to reassess even a little?
September 6th, 2011 at 8:12 am
@Alisdair. I resubmitted my reply to you as the spacing in my first reply got all screwed up for some reason. It’s now awaiting moderation.
September 6th, 2011 at 5:17 pm
@Sean.
Let me try and simplify my previous post because you are not realizing that you are confusing two separate things on a number of occasions.
WCF Chapter 1, Clause 1 says that in the past, God used personal revelation in two distinct ways; 1. to reveal Himself, and 2. to reveal what His will is. Clause 1 goes on to say that God has ceased using personal revelation to reveal what His will is as that will is now revealed in scripture. However, it specifically does NOT say that He has ceased using personal revelation to reveal *Himself.*
You have a prior underlying assumption that God does not personally reveal Himself any more and you are reading this back into the text of the WCF, rather than taking it from the text. You’re failing to distinguish between those two different types of personal revelation. By lumping them both together, you’re mistakenly concluding that they have both ceased but that does not follow from what the text in fact says, as I have clearly just explained. It’s a classic demonstration of the dangers of eisegesis.
It’s really important that you understand that there is a distinction between “God revealing what His will is” and “God revealing Himself.” The writers of the WCF certainly recognized it. It’s important to truly get this piont because it’s causing you to misunderstand a lot of the issues around revelation and it’s causing you to misunderstand what Sola Scriptura is all about.
Sola Scriptura is not, as you suggest, explained by Clause I of the WCF. That’s an eisegetical bias based on your faulty underlying assumption. The doctrine is best expressed by Clause VI,
“The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary
for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life,
is either expressly set down in scripture, or by good
and necessary consequence may be deduced from
scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be
added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or
traditions of men.”
What this Clause 6 is saying (and what Sola Scriptura is all about) is that we are to rely “on Scripture alone” for what we need to know about God’s will for our faith and life, as opposed to other non-scriptural sources, like Papal authority. A lot of the points you are making are perfectly sound arguments against any supposed new revelation of God’s will. For example, if someone comes along teaching Roman soteriology, or if James White has an epiphany and starts saying we need to move to a compound near the Grand Canyon and start wearing white shoes in order to be saved, we can compare it to scripture and see that it is completely bogus so we safely reject it. I agree with your arguments in respect of knowing God’s will and I would make many of the same arguments myself against that kind of alleged “new revelation.”
I agree that the main place where most people encounter God is in His Word, but that is not the only way God is restricted to and Sola Scriptura does not mean that God communicates “only through scripture.” I trust that you’re beginning to see that the revelation of “what God’s will is” is a completely seperate issue, distinct from how God chooses to reveal Himself to someone. Your criticism of Driscoll, or anyone who has had genuine personal revelation, demonstrates your confusion over these two concepts. You’re conflating “God’s will” with the *means* that He uses to reveal Himself. (As Reformed followers of Christ I’d hope we shared an understanding of what “means” are.)
Now, if God the Holy Spirit gives Mark Driscoll a 100% accurate vision about a person, that does not mean as you suggest that God is revealing some new truth to Mark Driscoll about His Will that is not found in scripture. Not at all. God is simply choosing to personally reveal Himself to the person that Driscoll is talking to. The Holy Spirit is just using Driscoll as the means through which He is making His personal revelation.
What I am consistently trying to point out is that you are making a category error by conflating two separate and distinct types of revelation that God used/uses. You’re trying to use arguments (that are sound against one type of revelation) against a completely different type of revelation that those arguments do not even address.
Now that I’ve made that as clear as I can, I’ve carried out my duty before God to do my best to correct your error as I see it. I’ll leave to the Holy Spirit to do the rest. It will be interesting to read your reply.
September 6th, 2011 at 8:42 pm
You have the last word Alisdair. Thank you for taking the time to interact with me.
Blessings -
Sean
September 10th, 2011 at 7:35 am
[...] In my view, this interpretation introduces a definition of prophecy that is not consistent with its practice in the apostolic church… (Online source) [...]
September 10th, 2011 at 10:14 am
Is a truly Reformed charismatic therefore an ex-charismatic?
September 10th, 2011 at 11:14 am
Great post, Mike!
Quote from Phil Johnson’s Pyromaniacs blog:
“Reformed charismatics frequently complain that it’s unfair for cessationists not to expressly exempt them when we criticize the eccentricities of the wacko fringe mainstream of the larger charismatic movement. But Reformed charismatics themselves aren’t careful to distance themselves from charismatic nuttiness. John Piper was openly intrigued with the Toronto Blessing when it was at its peak. (If he ever denounced it as a fraud, I never heard or read where he stated that fact publicly.) Wayne Grudem to this day endorses Jack Deere’s Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, despite the way Deere lionizes Paul Cain. Sam Storms aligned himself with the Kansas City Prophets’ cult for almost a decade. I can’t imagine how anyone holding Grudem’s view of modern prophecy could possibly repudiate what Driscoll insists he has experienced. Does anyone really expect a thoughtful analysis or critique of Driscoll’s view of the “gift of discernment” (much less a collective repudiation of this kind of pornographic divination) from Reformed charismatics? I certainly don’t.”
September 21st, 2011 at 6:15 am
[...] Can you be Reformed and Charismatic? Michael Horton talks about it here at the White Horse Inn. [...]
October 4th, 2011 at 12:20 pm
[...] I said in an earlier post ( Reformed and Charismatic?), I’m not willing to die on the hill of cessationism. In fact, I’d fit into the [...]
October 5th, 2011 at 3:09 pm
[...] Horton, in a recent post (Reformed and Charismatic? – White Horse Inn Blog) makes the following comment: I’ve never been willing to die on the hill of cessationism: that [...]
October 13th, 2011 at 9:44 pm
[...] EXCERPTED FROM Charimatic Feeds source http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2011/08/22/reformed-and-charismatic/ [...]
October 27th, 2011 at 10:55 am
From reading the blog and the comments, one thing I noticed is that no one had actually provided a biblical proof that all the gifts and miracles have ceased today. It’s been all about the denial of it from experience and abuse of it. Are we going to base our theology on experiences or from the bible? Just because we don’t see it and we have experienced fake miracles doesn’t negate the clear testimony of the scriptures that God does miracles using men and women all the time. I don’t see anything in the bible that says that God has stopped doing that. A question for cessationist when Mark claimed to have seen visions where did it come from? Especially if it lead to the repentance and the conversion of an individual? Are you all willing to say that all of the people that claim this are all liars or demonically possessed? Does the devil have that much power that he can conjure up visions that confronts sins? Would he want to do that? Especially for Calvinist that emphasizes God’s sovereignty this shouldn’t even be an issue…GOd can do what ever he wants!
October 27th, 2011 at 11:29 am
Wow…some great new additions on this thread. Thank you so much Alisdair and Jekris. I agree heartily with your tone and your content. Clearly reading the Bible leads to belief in continuation. it is only through painful experiences, observation of abuses or cleverly constructed syllogisms that we can come away thinking God has somehow tied His hands from working through the charismata any longer.
October 27th, 2011 at 11:38 am
“I am convinced that non-cessationism is neither exegetically sound nor historically compatible with Reformed theology.”
You know who said that? Michael Horton. The author of the blog.
Thus, he does not belief that “clearly reading the Bible leads to belief in continuation.”
October 27th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
Kevin….trust me, I know that MANY cessationists believe that their clear reading of Scripture leads them away from continuation. my point is that they are following their experience rather than what Scripture teaches. the passages used to try to defend cessationism are tortured and don’t say what is proposed (1 Corinthians 13, Ephesians 4, Hebrews 1 etc). bottom line is that i am sharing my opinion dogmatically….but i stand by that opinion. furthermore, church history is replete with examples of various forms of continuation even among Calvinists (Scottish Reformers for example had no problem with the charismatic gifts and experienced dreams, revelations, prophecies, healings, dead coming back to life (in one instance at least) and other things that are all quite charismatic in the denotative sense).
November 5th, 2011 at 3:00 am
“I am convinced that non-cessationism is neither exegetically sound nor historically compatible with Reformed theology.”…Michael Horton
When you exegete what the historical Reformed theology is from from what was written in the Westminster Confession of Faith, one reaches the opposite conclusion to brother Horton.
Chapter 1 para 1 states that signs and wonders and diverse methods, etc were used for 2 purposes but that only one of these has ceased, not both. Only God’s revelation of his will unto salvation stopped being revealed though signs, etc. When you exegete it carefully, avoiding presupposing your traditions, you see clearly that the drafters of WCF do not hold a cessationist position with regards to God revealing himself.
I would hope that brother Horton if he reads this perhaps reflect further and perhaps come to a different conclusion.
Using the same exegetical approach, isn’t the point just further rammed home by chapter 1 para X which provides a scriptural test for any revelation of the spirit (i.e. that it must accord absolutely with scripture and if it differs it must be rejected.) Why bother having a scriptural test if they didn’t believe it didn’t continue?
No, I’m sorry, but I for one must respectfully disagree with brother Horton’s assessment of the historical position. The WCF confirms both that God revealing HIMSELF continues and confirmed a method of testing whether a claimed revelation is genuine, i.e. is it scriptural and is it accurate. That’s demonstrably what the signatories to the confession signed up for.
By all means, feel free to claim that God doesn’t reveal himself in that way any more, but recognise that ultimately you are basing that on your own subjective personal experience, rather than anything claimed by the historical reformed faith.
If we are to be consistent, exegesis is not just for the Bible.